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FAS Work Placement Program

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Comments

  • #62
    Taxipete29
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,531 ✭✭✭Taxipete29


    Eden Whispering Art wrote: »
    The WPP2 is for non graduates so cut out the rubbish about people having a sense of entitlement. You do work you should be paid.

    Read back some of the comments on this thread.

    Work experience in any shape or form has always been unpaid work.

    What about college courses that have unpaid work placements??

    What about transition year students who do work experience unpaid??

    The fact that this is run through FAS and has been trumpeted by the Govt as a big policy initiative does not take away from the fact that it is still only a work experience programme and as such is unpaid. Some of the people who may avail of this programme may never get an oppurtunity otherwise, hence the name work experience.

    I dont agree with shops trying to get cheap shelf stackers and situations like this need to be weeded out and stopped but there are many genuine positions where people can get good experience.

    And by the way it is a Celtic Cub attitude you are showing


  • #63
    Eden Whispering Art
    Posts: 0 ✭ Eden Whispering Art


    Taxipete29 wrote: »

    And by the way it is a Celtic Cub attitude you are showing

    wanting pay is now "an attitude" sorry your majesty

    http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=64537072&postcount=121
    http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=64519009&postcount=109
    http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=64524193&postcount=112
    http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=64399835&postcount=67
    http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=64123656&postcount=26
    These arent 4th year or college placements, and now nearly one third of all jobs on fas.ie are WPP1/2

    Lets make the next generation pay for everything


  • #64
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    ThomasCreeby wrote: »
    dude, are you actually being serious? or are you just some shut-in on here to make some lame attempts at trolling?
    because im guessing you dont know anything about the WPP scheme judging from that comment. but thanks for "schooling" me on how naive i was being - suggestion noted.

    Accusations of trolling are not acceptable. If you genuinely believe someone is trolling, report their post - if not, don't accuse someone of it. Nor are insults acceptable.

    moderately,
    Scofflaw


  • #65
    Stark
    Registered Users Posts: 20,886 ✭✭✭✭Stark


    Taxipete29 wrote: »
    Read back some of the comments on this thread.

    Work experience in any shape or form has always been unpaid work.

    What about college courses that have unpaid work placements??

    What about transition year students who do work experience unpaid??

    Transition year work placements are usually two week work placements where the student basically hangs about for about two weeks without doing meaningful work.

    Most 6 month to year long placements have been paid placements in my experience to reflect that after a bedding in period, the student on placement does contribute to the company. 12 month placements generally pay more than the 6 month placements.

    The WPP program would be better than having someone sitting on their ass on the dole if managed well, but I wouldn't like to see it as being a donation program to employers who would otherwise be paying people to work for them.


  • #66
    danman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 583 ✭✭✭danman


    Eden Whispering Art wrote: »
    get off your high horse, he deserves to be paid, "he deserves credit", that does not pay bills. There is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting to be paid - wanting to be paid is not some "Celtic Cub attitude" :mad:

    If you don't see the merits of work experience, and there are many examples on this thread, then fine.

    There has always been work experience schemes, the University of Ulster had a compulsery work experience year as part of their degree programs. This was generally unpaid too.

    I'll remain on my high horse, because I know the benifits of a work experience scheme. I'm a prime example of the benifits.

    If you left Uni and walked into a job in the Celtic Tiger, fair play to you.

    That wasn't a normal employment envoirment. This is.

    Empoyers will take on the best candidates with the most experience.


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  • #67
    Taxipete29
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,531 ✭✭✭Taxipete29


    Eden Whispering Art wrote: »
    wanting pay is now "an attitude" sorry your majesty

    http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=64537072&postcount=121
    http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=64519009&postcount=109
    http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=64524193&postcount=112
    http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=64399835&postcount=67
    http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=64123656&postcount=26
    These arent 4th year or college placements, and now nearly one third of all jobs on fas.ie are WPP1/2

    Lets make the next generation pay for everything

    Where were these jobs before the WPP.

    Where is your evidence to suggest that these companies would of employed anyone had the WPP not been in place??

    As for the "your majesty comment". Getting personal is usually a sign you have lost an argument


  • #68
    billybigunz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 925 ✭✭✭billybigunz


    There has always been work experience schemes, the University of Ulster had a compulsery work experience year as part of their degree programs. This was generally unpaid too.
    Well do your work experience on somebody elses money. I'm not paying for somebody to stay on the dole when companies can and should be paying for them.
    Where were these jobs before the WPP.
    They were advertised as paying jobs. If you scan the job sites a lot you will have seen them change over.


  • #69
    Taxipete29
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,531 ✭✭✭Taxipete29


    Stark wrote: »
    Transition year work placements are usually two week work placements where the student basically hangs about for about two weeks without doing meaningful work.

    Most 6 month to year long placements have been paid placements in my experience to reflect that after a bedding in period, the student on placement does contribute to the company. 12 month placements generally pay more than the 6 month placements.

    The WPP program would be better than having someone sitting on their ass on the dole if managed well, but I wouldn't like to see it as being a donation program to employers who would otherwise be paying people to work for them.

    Neither would I, but apart from a few random examples of employers obviously looking to exploit the situation there is no evidence to suggest other comapnies would be hiring at all if it wasnt for the WPP


  • #70
    Taxipete29
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,531 ✭✭✭Taxipete29


    billybigunz wrote: »

    They were advertised as paying jobs. If you scan the job sites a lot you will have seen them change over.

    No offence but where is the proof?? Links and sources please


  • #71
    billybigunz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 925 ✭✭✭billybigunz


    Taxipete29 wrote: »
    No offence but where is the proof?? Links and sources please
    Is this a court of law? Do you think both ads exist in paralell? Use the old sawdust.


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  • #72
    AARRRRGH
    Closed Accounts Posts: 566 ✭✭✭AARRRRGH


    Interesting thread.
    A guy working with me left for another job 3 weeks ago.
    The boss has advertised for 2 WPP people with 3 year exp, to work for free, to replace him.
    It was ok with Fas as long as the 2 job descriptions were different to the job description of the guy who left.
    Now the boss is talking about taking on more WPP people since they will be free work. He thinks they'll probably work for very little after the WPP time is up too.

    I actually have a friend who is fully capable of doing the job and very keen to come and take that job. But he wants to be paid, so he wont get the job if the boss can get free workers instead.


  • #73
    Taxipete29
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,531 ✭✭✭Taxipete29


    billybigunz wrote: »
    Is this a court of law? Do you think both ads exist in paralell? Use the old sawdust.

    No, its not a court of law, but are we suppoosed to just take your word for it?? Your making the claim so back it up.


  • #74
    Elessar
    Registered Users Posts: 5,236 ✭✭✭Elessar


    I agree the WPP is a complete shambles and only entitles employers to free labour and adds burden to the worker. I could understand if the worker was given an extra €100 or so a week (company contribution) to cover costs etc. but free labour? Give me a break. A fair days work for a fair days wage.

    People put up with managers telling them what to do, irate customers breathing down their necks and other work situations because they are paid. There's not a hope in hell I would put up with all that if I knew the company had me for free. Not a hope. According to some people in this thread, asking for a contribution from the company makes me an ungrateful celtic tiger cub :confused:

    I can see the merit in some experience for certain people, but for 9-12 months? That's just taking the preverbial piss. What if you have a mortgage to pay, kids to raise, and other expenses, and on top of that you are expected to work 40 hours a week for free, covering your own expenses? While your employer treats you as one of their own, without actually paying you? Get off it.

    Do yourself and your country a favour and use those 40 hours to look even harder for a real job.


  • #75
    billybigunz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 925 ✭✭✭billybigunz


    Taxipete29 wrote: »
    No, its not a court of law, but are we suppoosed to just take your word for it?? Your making the claim so back it up.

    Yes why not. How much of a leap is it to believe that employers will take free labour rather than pay for it.

    Read above you. I suppose you want the full documents and recorded conversations before you will believe.


  • #76
    Taxipete29
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,531 ✭✭✭Taxipete29


    billybigunz wrote: »
    Yes why not. How much of a leap is it to believe that employers will take free labour rather than pay for it.

    Read above you. I suppose you want the full documents and recorded conversations before you will believe.

    OMG. If you cant back up your claims then fine, but dont come back with smart answers like I am out of order for not believing some internet randomer. You were asked to back up a claim, you obviously cant, so I will take from that whatever I wish.

    Ask a mod about backing up your claims or read the charter. Its all there.


  • #77
    donkey balls
    Registered Users Posts: 3,423 ✭✭✭donkey balls


    my aul lad has all ways said that a man/women willing to work for nothing will never be idle,maybe these wpp schemes will give Bill Cullen an idea for next years aprentice and hire someone through the wpp:rolleyes:.

    even before these schemes were brought in i was offered a full time job last year on the min wage which = a 60% wage cut i told the employer were to shove it.


  • #78
    Eden Whispering Art
    Posts: 0 ✭ Eden Whispering Art


    danman wrote: »
    If you don't see the merits of work experience, and there are many examples on this thread, then fine.

    if you`ve read my posts you`ll know Im both in favour of work experience AND reducing the minimum wage & dole. Yet others are even accusing me of having a celtic cub attitude of entitlement jeez there is a bigger picture here lads

    If ye think a 9 month unpaid internship stacking shelves will turn our economy around you dont have a clue. This does nothing to tackle the root causes of our huge unemployment problem.


  • #79
    katkin
    Registered Users Posts: 185 ✭✭katkin


    There is no conflict between being in favour of work experience and against WPP. The problem with the WPPs established is that they may work against job creation in that employers have no incentive to pay when they can have someone for nothing. Furthermore it helps the gov to appear like they are doing something to address the unemployment crisis in this country, when in fact they are doing nothing as they are too busy conniving to keep banks afloat to satisfy bondholders and shag the rest of us. I am on the dole and will not be taking part in any WPP, I am a graduate and have plenty of experience, but I amnt sitting around on my hole either, I am completing a course and do one full day a week working for a business, this arrangement gets me new experience I want to acquire, fills the gap on CV and similar to WPP helps me network and hopefully impress a few people. I have to travel to get there so I couldn't afford to do this 5 days a week.


  • #80
    WalterMitty
    Registered Users Posts: 1,582 ✭✭✭WalterMitty


    danman wrote: »
    If you don't see the merits of work experience, and there are many examples on this thread, then fine.

    There has always been work experience schemes, the University of Ulster had a compulsery work experience year as part of their degree programs. This was generally unpaid too.

    I'll remain on my high horse, because I know the benifits of a work experience scheme. I'm a prime example of the benifits.

    If you left Uni and walked into a job in the Celtic Tiger, fair play to you.

    That wasn't a normal employment envoirment. This is.

    Empoyers will take on the best candidates with the most experience.
    I remember several friends in DCU doing paid work experience as part of their degree back in 1999/2000. Many got offered permanent jobs with the companies after their degree. Never heard of anyone in dcu working the 6/9 months for free, although as students they wouldnt have been entitled to socia welfare at time. Unpaid work experience for a few weeks is alright but 6-9 months is unusual now and was always unusual except maybe in low paid apprenticeships


  • #81
    The_Honeybadger
    Registered Users Posts: 4,151 ✭✭✭The_Honeybadger


    WalterMitty wrote: »
    I remember several friends in DCU doing paid work experience as part of their degree back in 1999/2000. Many got offered permanent jobs with the companies after their degree. Never heard of anyone in dcu working the 6/9 months for free, although as students they wouldnt have been entitled to socia welfare at time. Unpaid work experience for a few weeks is alright but 6-9 months is unusual now and was always unusual except maybe in low paid apprenticeships
    I did a 4 month placement as part of my undergrad course and was paid more than what the dole is now, I think most placements were paid at that time 2002-03, however we are in a completely different scenario now, somebody earlier suggested that the employers often top-up the SW entitlements on these placements with cash in hand. If that is the case then I think it could be worthwhile for a recent graduate to take it up. In fact even without extra pay it may be worthwhile as recent grads will really struggle to get experience for the forseeable future. However offering these as placements and then specifying that you need 3-4 years experience is a total sham, and is nothing more than an effort to obtain free labour.


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  • #82
    28064212
    Registered Users Posts: 10,455 ✭✭✭✭28064212


    mickeyk wrote: »
    ...offering these as placements and then specifying that you need 3-4 years experience is a total sham, and is nothing more than an effort to obtain free labour.
    Why would people with 3-4 years experience take up these positions? A person with little to no experience has a huge amount to gain from working for free. Someone with 3+ years doesn't. It won't make them any more employable, and there are things that will do much more for their job prospects.

    The same is applicable for the low-skill 'shelf-stacking' jobs. Why would anyone apply for them? They have nothing to gain from doing them, and have to work 40 hours a week.

    People seem to be assuming that because these positions are advertised, they are being filled, when there is no basis for assuming so. If I put up a job asking for someone with experience of being CEO of a large multinational corporation, and offer €16,000 as a salary, is that indicative of CEO salary trends?

    I personally know 2 people on the WPP, and all are gaining experience exactly as the scheme was intended. I was also called for interview with another company before I got my current position, and they most definitely would have been giving me relevant experience. If I had 3+ years experience behind me, or the job wasn't going to provide me with any useful experience, I never would have gone for these positions

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  • #83
    Taxipete29
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,531 ✭✭✭Taxipete29


    28064212 wrote: »
    Why would people with 3-4 years experience take up these positions? A person with little to no experience has a huge amount to gain from working for free. Someone with 3+ years doesn't. It won't make them any more employable, and there are things that will do much more for their job prospects.

    The same is applicable for the low-skill 'shelf-stacking' jobs. Why would anyone apply for them? They have nothing to gain from doing them, and have to work 40 hours a week.

    People seem to be assuming that because these positions are advertised, they are being filled, when there is no basis for assuming so. If I put up a job asking for someone with experience of being CEO of a large multinational corporation, and offer €16,000 as a salary, is that indicative of CEO salary trends?

    I personally know 2 people on the WPP, and all are gaining experience exactly as the scheme was intended. I was also called for interview with another company before I got my current position, and they most definitely would have been giving me relevant experience. If I had 3+ years experience behind me, or the job wasn't going to provide me with any useful experience, I never would have gone for these positions


    This.


  • #84
    katkin
    Registered Users Posts: 185 ✭✭katkin


    28064212 wrote: »
    Why would people with 3-4 years experience take up these positions? A person with little to no experience has a huge amount to gain from working for free. Someone with 3+ years doesn't. It won't make them any more employable, and there are things that will do much more for their job prospects.

    The same is applicable for the low-skill 'shelf-stacking' jobs. Why would anyone apply for them? They have nothing to gain from doing them, and have to work 40 hours a week.

    People seem to be assuming that because these positions are advertised, they are being filled, when there is no basis for assuming so. If I put up a job asking for someone with experience of being CEO of a large multinational corporation, and offer €16,000 as a salary, is that indicative of CEO salary trends?

    I personally know 2 people on the WPP, and all are gaining experience exactly as the scheme was intended. I was also called for interview with another company before I got my current position, and they most definitely would have been giving me relevant experience. If I had 3+ years experience behind me, or the job wasn't going to provide me with any useful experience, I never would have gone for these positions

    There was a very poor response from both potential employers and graduates to the first WPP which led to changes in criteria for employers and potential "employees" for WPP1 and to the introduction of the WPP2. I see your point regarding positions requiring experience and problems with WPP2. But doesn't that really show the scheme up for what it is though, poorly thought out and a waste of energy. Surely to God FAS could be better employed considering the unemployment crisis. This program seems to operate on the basis that people are not employed at the moment because they have no work experience when as we all know they are not employed because there are no jobs!


  • #85
    The_Honeybadger
    Registered Users Posts: 4,151 ✭✭✭The_Honeybadger


    28064212 wrote: »
    Why would people with 3-4 years experience take up these positions? A person with little to no experience has a huge amount to gain from working for free. Someone with 3+ years doesn't. It won't make them any more employable, and there are things that will do much more for their job prospects.

    The same is applicable for the low-skill 'shelf-stacking' jobs. Why would anyone apply for them? They have nothing to gain from doing them, and have to work 40 hours a week.

    People seem to be assuming that because these positions are advertised, they are being filled, when there is no basis for assuming so. If I put up a job asking for someone with experience of being CEO of a large multinational corporation, and offer €16,000 as a salary, is that indicative of CEO salary trends?

    I personally know 2 people on the WPP, and all are gaining experience exactly as the scheme was intended. I was also called for interview with another company before I got my current position, and they most definitely would have been giving me relevant experience. If I had 3+ years experience behind me, or the job wasn't going to provide me with any useful experience, I never would have gone for these positions
    Eh, thats exactly what I was saying did you read my post at all? I said that it may be worthwhile for a recent grad to take it up. I was talking about the employers who are specifying that you need 3-4 years exp, its a total joke, and like you said there would be simply no point for somebody with that experience taking up a WPP placement, it is merely free labour for employers hoping to get an experienced worker for nothing, a total win win for the employer, and the worker getting nothing out of it. I'm disappointed that FAS are allowing the program to be abused in this way.


  • #86
    RichardAnd
    Registered Users Posts: 3,629 ✭✭✭RichardAnd


    billybigunz wrote: »
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1258841/North-Korean-Pak-Nam-Ki-executed-ruining-countrys-financial-affairs.html


    At least some countries in this world still know how to punish people properly. Pity we don't take a page from their book.


  • #87
    28064212
    Registered Users Posts: 10,455 ✭✭✭✭28064212


    katkin wrote: »
    There was a very poor response from both potential employers and graduates to the first WPP which led to changes in criteria for employers and potential "employees" for WPP1 and to the introduction of the WPP2. I see your point regarding positions requiring experience and problems with WPP2. But doesn't that really show the scheme up for what it is though, poorly thought out and a waste of energy. Surely to God FAS could be better employed considering the unemployment crisis. This program seems to operate on the basis that people are not employed at the moment because they have no work experience when as we all know they are not employed because there are no jobs!
    There are no jobs, so Fás put together a scheme to give people who didn't have experience a chance to get some. If you have some kind of solution to the jobs crisis, I'm sure Fás would love to hear it, but in the meantime, this is a practical program to increase job-seekers' employability for when there are jobs.
    mickeyk wrote: »
    Eh, thats exactly what I was saying did you read my post at all? I said that it may be worthwhile for a recent grad to take it up. I was talking about the employers who are specifying that you need 3-4 years exp, its a total joke, and like you said there would be simply no point for somebody with that experience taking up a WPP placement, it is merely free labour for employers hoping to get an experienced worker for nothing, a total win win for the employer, and the worker getting nothing out of it. I'm disappointed that FAS are allowing the program to be abused in this way.
    How is it providing free labour if no-one takes it up? No experienced worker is going to take up a placement, there is absolutely no advantage to them doing so.

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  • #88
    28064212
    Registered Users Posts: 10,455 ✭✭✭✭28064212


    RichardAnd wrote: »
    billybigunz wrote: »
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1258841/North-Korean-Pak-Nam-Ki-executed-ruining-countrys-financial-affairs.html
    At least some countries in this world still know how to punish people properly. Pity we don't take a page from their book.
    Yes, that's what we need, clearly North Korea are a shining beacon of how a country should be run

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  • #89
    The_Honeybadger
    Registered Users Posts: 4,151 ✭✭✭The_Honeybadger


    28064212 wrote: »
    How is it providing free labour if no-one takes it up? No experienced worker is going to take up a placement, there is absolutely no advantage to them doing so.
    Where did I say experienced people were taking it up (again read my posts)? I was trying to highlight the audacity of employers to look for people with 3-4 years experience to fill these positions. I said it was an effort to obtain free labour by companies. And anyway, how do you know for sure that no experienced candidates have taken it up? The jobs market is pretty hopeless even for experienced people now, and somebody who wanted to change career dierction, say from accountancy to IT may see it as an opportunity to broaden their experience rather than sitting on the dole. Unless you have figures proving nobody with decent experience has availed of the scheme (and I seriously doubt you have) how can you be sure.


  • #90
    28064212
    Registered Users Posts: 10,455 ✭✭✭✭28064212


    Firstly, apologies, I meant to specify in my previous post that my initial reply wasn't specifically aimed at what you said, it was just a general point (I just quoted yours' as it was the most recent to mention it). However, you then went on to say:
    mickeyk wrote: »
    it is merely free labour for employers hoping to get an experienced worker for nothing, a total win win for the employer, and the worker getting nothing out of it
    Those things are only true if a job-seeker with no reason to do so takes up the placement.
    mickeyk wrote: »
    Where did I say experienced people were taking it up (again read my posts)? I was trying to highlight the audacity of employers to look for people with 3-4 years experience to fill these positions. I said it was an effort to obtain free labour by companies. And anyway, how do you know for sure that no experienced candidates have taken it up? The jobs market is pretty hopeless even for experienced people now, and somebody who wanted to change career dierction, say from accountancy to IT may see it as an opportunity to broaden their experience rather than sitting on the dole. Unless you have figures proving nobody with decent experience has availed of the scheme (and I seriously doubt you have) how can you be sure.
    If it's someone changing career direction, then they don't have 3+ years experience, they have no experience (that is relevant). The WPP is perfectly suited for them to gain some experience.

    I have no evidence to show there are no experienced people taking up jobs, equally you have no evidence to show that they are. But why would they work? What possible reason would they have to work for free for something that doesn't benefit them?

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  • #91
    The_Honeybadger
    Registered Users Posts: 4,151 ✭✭✭The_Honeybadger


    28064212 wrote: »
    Firstly, apologies, I meant to specify in my previous post that my initial reply wasn't specifically aimed at what you said, it was just a general point (I just quoted yours' as it was the most recent to mention it). However, you then went on to say:Those things are only true if a job-seeker with no reason to do so takes up the placement.If it's someone changing career direction, then they don't have 3+ years experience, they have no experience (that is relevant). The WPP is perfectly suited for them to gain some experience.

    I have no evidence to show there are no experienced people taking up jobs, equally you have no evidence to show that they are. But why would they work? What possible reason would they have to work for free for something that doesn't benefit them?
    I was speaking in theoretical terms here:
    there would be simply no point for somebody with that experience taking up a WPP placement, it is merely free labour for employers hoping to get an experienced worker for nothing, a total win win for the employer, and the worker getting nothing out of it.
    thought that would be clear if you read the whole post, I am not trying to prove that experienced people are taking the jobs up, nor do I believe they are.


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