What to study alongside C?

Python is a good fit for dynamic webpages, also easy to extend with C or use from C and great for writing quick and dirty utility programs.

Rails isn't a language, it's a framework for Ruby and I don't especially recommend it. If you want to go with Ruby, use a micro framework like Sinatra when starting out. Easy to get things up and running without hiding everything that's going on. Similarly, there's stuff like Bottle or Tornado for Python.

There's also node.js, a server side Javascript framework and angular.js which is a Javascript client side MVC framework. These are in next-big-thing territory. Angular in particular is NOT beginner friendly, but I would keep an eye on them nonetheless.

Steer clear of PHP, it's a commonly used language but not one that'll turn you into a good programmer and easily picked up afterwards if required.

The challenge with Ruby and Python is supposed to be the job you're working on, rather than getting the tools to do what you want them to

Languages like C have specific areas for which they're the best tools to use, but they do require you to do more work than some other languages. Horses for courses - which is why you don't see much use of C for really large application-type projects or web startups or the like (and conversely, why C is so ubiquitous for systems programming).

pog it wrote: »

I've left C aside for now and focussing on Ruby which is wonderful for a change.

Thanks all for the tips.

One word of warning - in my opinion, ruby is semantically a little unclean.
This mightn't make it a great beginner language.

Its productive, but might be confusing.
If you find yourself getting confused, something like C - or Java - or, if you want to go high level, Python, might be better.

Example illustrative ruby code:

2.weeks.from_now

require 'date'
t = DateTime.now
puts t 

# Add 14 days
puts t + 14 

# Add 2 months
puts t >> 2 

(What does any of that even mean?)

Except that's not what I said, but hey, I love hyperbole as much as the next man!

The indentation is something that you very quickly forget about with Python to be honest. Most editors will handle it for you anyway.

oscarBravo wrote: »

I'm also curious as to why you'd want to indent in a way other than that required by the Python syntax.

Indentation? Dude, that's like one of the three holy wars, alongside emacs-versus-vi and kde-versus-gnome...

Ah, but you're omitting the do-you-indent-the-case-line-in-switch and other such discussions on what is part of what logical block...

pog it wrote: »

Would it not be easy to find that out?

Its easy from just looking at the code to figure out what it does.

But that's not my point. My point is that it's not semantically clean.

"2.weeks.from_now"

The 'dot' operator, like usual, is to invoke a method on an object.

Apparently, the '2' object knows something about 'weeks'.


I don't know how that works underneath the hood. If anyone with more ruby experience wants to explain it, I'm all ears.

But the semantics going on there are horrible.

pog it wrote: »

Have you ever spent time with Ruby Fergair?

A little time, not much.

Its pretty easy to pick up if you know other similar languages, and I've spent substantial time with, e.g. C,C++,Java,Perl,Python (and others) which are pretty similar. I'm also ok at coding in a functional style, or in lisp-likes, so I see those influences too - I kind of know what I'm getting into.


But anyway, I'm not sure that's too relevant.

I mean, if the principle being applied is that I can't criticise it if I haven't spent much time with it - well, I haven't spent much time with brain****, and I know I don't want to spend more with it.


Anyway, where I'm coming from here:

I find that when someone is learning the program, the most important thing is not how hard the syntax is - its how 'consistent' the abstractions the person has to learn are. What kills a learners momentum is when something isn't working the way they expect, and they just can't figure out why. Because the abstraction that they learned is leaking.
And I'd just be concerned that ruby (or more correctly, ruby as currently written, and in libraries etc.) would do that more than python.

pog it wrote: »

The problem for me is that even though learning C is doable it seems like harder work than I need to put myself through as I am not aiming to become a programmer.

Sure, I totally understand that.

Learning C is a long and painful path to learning to program - although it will make you a good programmer.

pog it wrote: »

I wouldn't ever be able to compete with the naturals at it anyway.

That's probably nonsense. I mean that in a nice way

I looked back at your previous thread, which is almost a year ago now, as I remembered your name.

Don't write yourself off. Like, seriously. If you are still interested in this stuff, you are probably properly interested. You could probably become the best programmer on the development forum if you wanted, it'd just take a long time. Its mostly about keeping at it, and being interested.
Telling computers the right thing to do is hard for all of us, we're not naturally that logical. That's why landers crash into mars and why everything is broken.

Anyway, blah blah, not to be about platitudes and stuff, but don't say you 'arent a natural' or some such, you're probably operating from false assumptions (in my opinion) and underestimating where you can go. (If you just dont *want* to go beyond a certain point, thats fine too; up to you; but dont think you can't - you probably can.)

pog it wrote: »

I don't like the idea that Python is white space sensitive and so serious about indentation. At least with C you can choose your own levels of indentation so it feels freer. It's a small thing maybe relatively though and I may well change over to Python again but so far Ruby seems plain enough.

The white space sensitivity is annoying.

It does mean that everyone's code is properly formatted, in a consistent style, which is nice. But it is annoying.

But it also keeps code clean, and sometimes makes it easier to look at and read and absorb. Positive and negative.

Anyway, that's a comment about syntax. Immature programmers tend to focus on syntax too much. (Not that it isnt important; but its not as important as people initially think, within limits.) Really semantics is more important than syntax!


Anyway, Ruby is a fine language; you'd be fine with it; I just would suggest Python more to a beginner.

fergalr wrote: »

Example illustrative ruby code:

2.weeks.from_now

require 'date'
t = DateTime.now
puts t 

# Add 14 days
puts t + 14 

# Add 2 months
puts t >> 2 

(What does any of that even mean?)

Example Rails code, I can show you some mental looking Django/JEE/etc as it is an abstraction...
As for the ">>" well that is just syntactic sugar, you could define your own method in date call add if you wanted.

Well cleaner is highly subjective. It is fairly representative yes but Rails has its own sugar and style on top of ruby and you can always go against the shorthand or ruby style and spell it out if you think it is cleaner or more obvious that way.
Matz is more influenced by Perl and not a BDFL influencing one right way to do things (both have advantages).

It is a toss up for a beginner between the two of them either way.

>> is a bit shift, using it for anything else is blasphemy and naming it syntactic sugar won't change the reality

I cringe when I see those operators overloaded for streams in the C++ standard library. Inappropriate operator overloading? That's a paddlin'.

You should see some of the abominations I've seen. Even if I sanitised the class and method names, they would still be identifiable!