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Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,663 ✭✭✭serfboard


    In relation to the IWRC, one of their Galway members, Fianna Fail's Michael Connolly retired before the last election. On the other hand, one of their more enthusuastic supporters, SFs Gerry Murray, was re-elected in Mayo.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    serfboard wrote: »
    In relation to the IWRC, one of their Galway members, Fianna Fail's Michael Connolly retired before the last election. On the other hand, one of their more enthusuastic supporters, SFs Gerry Murray, was re-elected in Mayo.


    I didn't realise that about Michael Connolly, that is good news that one of the diehards has retired, I think the age profile of the councils did shift slightly in the last election with some new blood coming in, who won't owe allegiances to old ideas. In Sligo for example we have six new faces of 18 on the council that have no longstanding allegiances to west on track. 13/18 councillors in sligo now support the greenway idea. Re Gerry Murray he is really just singing the party anthem, at the moment SF have the WRC on their agenda but that could change, there are SF senior members who think it might need to. SF will always stick to the party line. Of course the good news in Galway came out of Tuam with some pro-greenway councillors coming on board. Shaun Cunniffe and Karey McHugh in particular were very much pro-greenway in their election campaigns. Its the new blood we need to focus on now in the councils they will listen about greenways and alternative views.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,610 ✭✭✭eastwest


    The inter county railway has also lost Frank Dawson, the Roscommon county manager, who was also one of the core members -- he and Michael mcgreal were close allies on the committee.
    On the national level, the cabinet reshuffle may throw up some additional pressure on the wot brigade. Alan Kelly seems to be the front runner for Leo varadkar's job, and Kelly has been an outspoken supporter of the greenway option to protect old rail lines.
    Interesting times ahead in this debate.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,048 ✭✭✭✭Grandeeod


    Eventually a lot of them will die off and disappear, which will probably allow other people to tell the real story of this debacle along with the general BS associated with railway lobbying that has so far been stifled by threats of legal action.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    Well things are moving forward, or at least we hope they are this morning.

    A motion going to Sligo coco this morning!

    http://www.sligococo.ie/YourCouncil/CouncilAgendas/MeetingMainBody,31760,en.html it is item 38.

    Monday July 6th Dara Mulvey FG from Coolaney (backed by others) will be tabling a motion that reads thus:

    “Given that the Minister for Sustainable and public transport Alan Kelly is on record as stating that any extension of The Western Rail corridor will not be considered for ten or even twenty years, and given the alarming level of incursions on the closed rail route in County Sligo, and the Minister’s recent statement that he is in favour of protecting old railway routes with greenways, I propose that the Council should write to the Minister seeking funding to support a feasibility study for a greenway to be put in place on the disused railway line from Collooney to the County border at Bellaghy/Charlestown. The project proposal should include a plan to connect this greenway to Sligo through existing trails in Union Wood, with future expansion onwards to Enniskillen via the proposed Collooney-Enniskillen greenway. This connected infrastructure would also have the potential to connect further south and west to the existing Great Western Greenway, creating a tourism product that would allow the west of Ireland to capitalise on the strong and growing European market for cycling and long-distance walking holidays, as well as providing a superb and safe leisure and commuting facility for all the communities along the route.”

    And to think one SF pro WOT councillor in Mayo said the Western Rail Corridor is not on the table and not up for discussion! Lets see if Sligo coco have the balls to push this through unadulterated.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,610 ✭✭✭eastwest


    Well, it's up for discussion now, in Sligo at least.
    It would be extraordinary if Sligo Council created another 'Lisadell' foul-up by passing up on available funding for this project, but you never know.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    Well lets hope they don't although I am sure WOT will do all they can to "railroad" this motion; we can only wait and see the outcome.


  • Registered Users Posts: 314 ✭✭Kumsheen


    eastwest wrote: »
    On the national level, the cabinet reshuffle may throw up some additional pressure on the wot brigade. Alan Kelly seems to be the front runner for Leo varadkar's job, and Kelly has been an outspoken supporter of the greenway option to protect old rail lines.
    Interesting times ahead in this debate.

    The Irish Times seems to think James Reilly will get moved to Transport.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/burton-and-kenny-hold-first-meeting-about-new-cabinet-and-government-policy-1.1857466


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    Kumsheen wrote: »

    Nobody knows till it happens, Reilly to transport might well be the case - if Kelly gets Jobs, Just not sure who will get Kellys job in TTand Sport. However Varadkar to environment will be good news for greenway supporters bearing in mind the role of councils in greenway developments and his known support of greenways on closed railways. but we all have to wait and see. One thing is for sure no one is going to to TTS with a fat chequebook to build branch lines in the west of ireland!


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    westtip wrote: »
    Well things are moving forward, or at least we hope they are this morning.

    A motion going to Sligo coco this morning!

    http://www.sligococo.ie/YourCouncil/CouncilAgendas/MeetingMainBody,31760,en.html it is item 38.

    Monday July 6th Dara Mulvey FG from Coolaney (backed by others) will be tabling a motion that reads thus:

    “Given that the Minister for Sustainable and public transport Alan Kelly is on record as stating that any extension of The Western Rail corridor will not be considered for ten or even twenty years, and given the alarming level of incursions on the closed rail route in County Sligo, and the Minister’s recent statement that he is in favour of protecting old railway routes with greenways, I propose that the Council should write to the Minister seeking funding to support a feasibility study for a greenway to be put in place on the disused railway line from Collooney to the County border at Bellaghy/Charlestown. The project proposal should include a plan to connect this greenway to Sligo through existing trails in Union Wood, with future expansion onwards to Enniskillen via the proposed Collooney-Enniskillen greenway. This connected infrastructure would also have the potential to connect further south and west to the existing Great Western Greenway, creating a tourism product that would allow the west of Ireland to capitalise on the strong and growing European market for cycling and long-distance walking holidays, as well as providing a superb and safe leisure and commuting facility for all the communities along the route.”

    And to think one SF pro WOT councillor in Mayo said the Western Rail Corridor is not on the table and not up for discussion! Lets see if Sligo coco have the balls to push this through unadulterated.


    Just heard from the Sligo county council chamber that despite efforts to stop the motion re a greenway and attempts to change the motion so that the submission would be changed to read a greenway alongside the old railway, that a motion was passed that says the council will ask the Dept of transport to seek funding for a greenway feasibility study either "on or alongside the old railway" Having the word "on" the old railway" was critical and Dara Mulvey the clllr who put the motion up stuck to his guns to make sure the small but important word "on" the railway stayed in the motion - with the option of On or alongside the old railway going into the amended motion the department can make the decision, this is brilliant news and is now the beginning of the process to get this project achieved


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,610 ✭✭✭eastwest


    westtip wrote: »
    Just heard from the Sligo county council chamber that despite efforts to stop the motion re a greenway and attempts to change the motion so that the submission would be changed to read a greenway alongside the old railway, that a motion was passed that says the council will ask the Dept of transport to seek funding for a greenway feasibility study either "on or alongside the old railway" Having the word "on" the old railway" was critical and Dara Mulvey the clllr who put the motion up stuck to his guns to make sure the small but important word "on" the railway stayed in the motion - with the option of On or alongside the old railway going into the amended motion the department can make the decision, this is brilliant news and is now the beginning of the process to get this project achieved

    That's a huge step forward for this project. A local authority has finally shaken off the 'group-think' mentality of old and has made a decision based on the realities of the situation.
    1. There is no possibility of funding for the so-called 'western rail corridor', and the route is slowly being eroded by squatters.
    2. A greenway would protect the route for future generations, and there is funding available for greenways.
    3. The towns along the route are crying out for safe places for children and families to cycle.
    4. The tourism and jobs potential of this initiative is enormous.
    When you look at it like that, it's hard to understand that opposition to it still exists at all. Still, today was a good day for common sense.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    eastwest wrote: »
    That's a huge step forward for this project. A local authority has finally shaken off the 'group-think' mentality of old and has made a decision based on the realities of the situation.
    1. There is no possibility of funding for the so-called 'western rail corridor', and the route is slowly being eroded by squatters.
    2. A greenway would protect the route for future generations, and there is funding available for greenways.
    3. The towns along the route are crying out for safe places for children and families to cycle.
    4. The tourism and jobs potential of this initiative is enormous.
    When you look at it like that, it's hard to understand that opposition to it still exists at all. Still, today was a good day for common sense.

    Yes it is hard to understand, nevertheless Sligo coco have now democratically accepted that using the route for a greenway will protect the route in perpetuity. Next steps are to get this motion into action. The county manager and county engineer seem to like the idea. A submission now needs to go to the department asking for consideration for a feasibility study but remember Sligo is years behind the other counties who are way down the road on this issue. We can only hope the next minister into the department is as accepting of the idea as Alan Kelly was and will fast track this request.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,412 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    Does the greenway need to be built/run by the county council ? It's IE's land , could local groups ,community groups get the greenway built ,cheaper and quicker than having to go through the council ? Obviously county council support would be very important..

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    Markcheese wrote: »
    Does the greenway need to be built/run by the county council ? It's IE's land , could local groups ,community groups get the greenway built ,cheaper and quicker than having to go through the council ? Obviously county council support would be very important..

    I think the general consensus is Irish Rail will only release stretches of line they own to statutory bodies - cocos or central Government. In truth yes local groups could probably do it quicker and cheaper and just "get it done" but that's not how the system works! Pity really. On this stretch of line Irish rail the idea is the land will be leased to Sligo coco with the proviso that if it is ever needed for railway it can be released back to Irish Rail, but all that will have to come out of the feasibility study. The key thing is sligo coco are asking for the feasibility study to be done, this was the huge step in the right direction, the idea and thinking that the route will be greenway is now well and truly in the system.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,610 ✭✭✭eastwest


    westtip wrote: »
    I think the general consensus is Irish Rail will only release stretches of line they own to statutory bodies - cocos or central Government. In truth yes local groups could probably do it quicker and cheaper and just "get it done" but that's not how the system works! Pity really. On this stretch of line Irish rail the idea is the land will be leased to Sligo coco with the proviso that if it is ever needed for railway it can be released back to Irish Rail, but all that will have to come out of the feasibility study. The key thing is sligo coco are asking for the feasibility study to be done, this was the huge step in the right direction, the idea and thinking that the route will be greenway is now well and truly in the system.

    Realistically the more expensive option of a county council project is the only one that will suit CIE. Remember that the land will remain in the ownership of CIE with permissive access licensed to the council. They won't want to complicate this by involving community groups.
    Hopefully the council won't use the mayo benchmark of €120,000/km as some kind of a target. This project should be delivered for half that amount, even with council involvement, given that no private landowners are involved and there won't be any need to build roads, walls or sheds for farmers to keep them sweet.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,309 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    eastwest wrote: »
    This project should be delivered for half that amount, even with council involvement, given that no private landowners are involved and there won't be any need to build roads, walls or sheds for farmers to keep them sweet.
    No driveways or garden extensions? :D


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,412 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    Can imagine an awful lot of fencing having to be done ,and a fair share of road crossings, as well as lots of cosultant engineers reports, and lots of debate over the particular type of gravel to be used , and the need to remove all the existing balast (which will probably be classed as hasardous waste once removed) and replacing it with an utterly unsuitable one...using layers of geotextile

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    Markcheese wrote: »
    Can imagine an awful lot of fencing having to be done ,and a fair share of road crossings, as well as lots of cosultant engineers reports, and lots of debate over the particular type of gravel to be used , and the need to remove all the existing balast (which will probably be classed as hasardous waste once removed) and replacing it with an utterly unsuitable one...using layers of geotextile

    Or they could just do what they have done in every other country and get on with it! Yes of course there will be issues and gardens to go through - thanks to Sligo coco not protecting the route all these years and granting planning permissions for houses that have the railway through their front gardens, yes there will be all of this, but the issue is that a greenway is going to be looked at, that a greenway will present a continuous unbroken usage of the railway route until such time as a railway ever becomes possible, and a greenway will do exactly what has been said all along - protect this piece of land in public ownership, which is what both Sligo and Mayo cocos and Irish Rail have failed to do. Without a greenway there will never be a railway is really the fact of the matter.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,610 ✭✭✭eastwest


    Markcheese wrote: »
    Can imagine an awful lot of fencing having to be done ,and a fair share of road crossings, as well as lots of cosultant engineers reports, and lots of debate over the particular type of gravel to be used , and the need to remove all the existing balast (which will probably be classed as hasardous waste once removed) and replacing it with an utterly unsuitable one...using layers of geotextile

    One of the myths that County Councils perpetrate when doing jobs like this is that they need to spend money on fencing. In fact, the County council doesn't own any cattle or sheep, so don't need to build fences to contain them. It's up to adjoining landowners to fence in animals, not the other way around.
    What's the betting though that a lot of farmers along the route will have their fences made (and maintained by) the Council? That is one of the reasons why costs escalate on simple projects that should be cheap to deliver.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    eastwest wrote: »
    One of the myths that County Councils perpetrate when doing jobs like this is that they need to spend money on fencing. In fact, the County council doesn't own any cattle or sheep, so don't need to build fences to contain them. It's up to adjoining landowners to fence in animals, not the other way around.
    What's the betting though that a lot of farmers along the route will have their fences made (and maintained by) the Council? That is one of the reasons why costs escalate on simple projects that should be cheap to deliver.

    Yes as soon as this news really gets digested in the public domain we are going to have farmers claiming they graze their cattle on the route. All the private households who have incorporated the railway into their gardens are going to be claiming compensation and objecting to it all, what everyone needs to remember is the title deeds of this piece of land that is about 20 metres wide and runs from Collooney to Charlestown (sligo mayo border) is owned by Irish Rail. Compensation is not the issue, the issue is theft, by those who have tried to steal this land which is owned by the state, by you me and every other resident of this state. Of course the theft has been aided and abetted by a council who on the one hand has guarded the holy principle and stuck to the holy grail of wanting a railway restored and on the other hand has flagrantly ignored its own planning guidelines by allowing this theft to continue. The state needs to simply say if you want compensation because we are going to use OUR land for recreational purposes in the public interest then you can take us to court. We will then see the mettle of those who are claiming compensation.

    A request - I can't find it but could someone post up a link to the very original western rail corridor thread that was closed down a few years back, I want to pull out a post from it. Thanks


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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,309 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    eastwest wrote: »
    One of the myths that County Councils perpetrate when doing jobs like this is that they need to spend money on fencing. In fact, the County council doesn't own any cattle or sheep, so don't need to build fences to contain them. It's up to adjoining landowners to fence in animals, not the other way around.
    What's the betting though that a lot of farmers along the route will have their fences made (and maintained by) the Council? That is one of the reasons why costs escalate on simple projects that should be cheap to deliver.
    What is the status of fencing on the line right now?

    In 2006, 5m Euro was announced as being spent on Claremorris-Collooney clearing and fencing (and almost completed) but... in 2012 this article basically states that fencing on the section is not done or at least not complete.

    As for cattle etc., my understanding was that IE basically got blamed on current active lines if fencing was inadequate and an animal got hit by a train. Is it possible the legislation granting the original railway protected adjoining landowners by making the railway responsible for boundary works?

    EDIT: Eastwest (EDIT AGAIN: oops, actually westtip) - are you sure about that 20 metres figure? I'm looking at Appendix 3 of the Network Statement and that seems very wide when it seems from my amateur reading that double track can be accommodated within 10.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    dowlingm wrote: »
    What is the status of fencing on the line right now?

    In 2006, 5m Euro was announced as being spent on Claremorris-Collooney clearing and fencing (and almost completed) but... in 2012 this article b

    EDIT: Eastwest - are you sure about that 20 metres figure? I'm looking at Appendix 3 of the Network Statement and that seems very wide when it seems from my amateur reading that double track can be accommodated within 10.

    Nah I just plucked it from the air. should have said something like a nice wide strip of land...


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,610 ✭✭✭eastwest


    dowlingm wrote: »
    What is the status of fencing on the line right now?

    In 2006, 5m Euro was announced as being spent on Claremorris-Collooney clearing and fencing (and almost completed) but... in 2012 this article basically states that fencing on the section is not done or at least not complete.

    As for cattle etc., my understanding was that IE basically got blamed on current active lines if fencing was inadequate and an animal got hit by a train. Is it possible the legislation granting the original railway protected adjoining landowners by making the railway responsible for boundary works?

    EDIT: Eastwest - are you sure about that 20 metres figure? I'm looking at Appendix 3 of the Network Statement and that seems very wide when it seems from my amateur reading that double track can be accommodated within 10.

    Not guilty!
    Although it's not far off the mark I'd say, and a lot wider in many places.


  • Registered Users Posts: 231 ✭✭sonnyblack


    Stumbled across a greenway discussion on Sligo County council website. There was a motion tabled in relation to a Greenway proposal on the disuded WRC

    http://www.sligococo.ie/YourCouncil/CouncilAgendas/MeetingMainBody,31760,en.html
    1. To consider the following motion as submitted by Councillor D. Mulvey
      “Given that the Minister for Sustainable and public transport Alan Kelly is on record as stating that any extension of The Western Rail corridor will not be considered for ten or even twenty years, and given the alarming level of incursions on the closed rail route in County Sligo, and the Minister’s recent statement that he is in favour of protecting old railway routes with greenways, I propose that the Council should write to the Minister seeking funding to support a feasibility study for a greenway to be put in place on the disused railway line from Collooney to the County border at Bellaghy/Charlestown. The project proposal should include a plan to connect this greenway to Sligo through existing trails in Union Wood, with future expansion onwards to Enniskillen via the proposed Collooney-Enniskillen greenway. This connected infrastructure would also have the potential to connect further south and west to the existing Great Western Greenway, creating a tourism product that would allow the west of Ireland to capitalise on the strong and growing European market for cycling and long-distance walking holidays, as well as providing a superb and safe leisure and commuting facility for all the communities along the route.”
    Anybody hear how that went?


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,309 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    eastwest wrote: »
    Not guilty!
    Although it's not far off the mark I'd say, and a lot wider in many places.
    Sorry mate :( I'm surprised - I thought being built under the light rail legislation it might have been fairly tight apart from passing places/stations.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,610 ✭✭✭eastwest


    sonnyblack wrote: »
    Stumbled across a greenway discussion on Sligo County council website. There was a motion tabled in relation to a Greenway proposal on the disuded WRC

    http://www.sligococo.ie/YourCouncil/CouncilAgendas/MeetingMainBody,31760,en.html
    1. To consider the following motion as submitted by Councillor D. Mulvey
      “Given that the Minister for Sustainable and public transport Alan Kelly is on record as stating that any extension of The Western Rail corridor will not be considered for ten or even twenty years, and given the alarming level of incursions on the closed rail route in County Sligo, and the Minister’s recent statement that he is in favour of protecting old railway routes with greenways, I propose that the Council should write to the Minister seeking funding to support a feasibility study for a greenway to be put in place on the disused railway line from Collooney to the County border at Bellaghy/Charlestown. The project proposal should include a plan to connect this greenway to Sligo through existing trails in Union Wood, with future expansion onwards to Enniskillen via the proposed Collooney-Enniskillen greenway. This connected infrastructure would also have the potential to connect further south and west to the existing Great Western Greenway, creating a tourism product that would allow the west of Ireland to capitalise on the strong and growing European market for cycling and long-distance walking holidays, as well as providing a superb and safe leisure and commuting facility for all the communities along the route.”
    Anybody hear how that went?

    Passed.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,610 ✭✭✭eastwest


    dowlingm wrote: »
    Sorry mate :( I'm surprised - I thought being built under the light rail legislation it might have been fairly tight apart from passing places/stations.

    Some sections are tight enough, but lots of it has a wide footprint and will easily accommodate a permanent greenway alongside if a railway is ever built.
    If!


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    sonnyblack wrote: »
    Stumbled across a greenway discussion on Sligo County council website. There was a motion tabled in relation to a Greenway proposal on the disuded WRC

    http://www.sligococo.ie/YourCouncil/CouncilAgendas/MeetingMainBody,31760,en.html
    1. To consider the following motion as submitted by Councillor D. Mulvey
      “Given that the Minister for Sustainable and public transport Alan Kelly is on record as stating that any extension of The Western Rail corridor will not be considered for ten or even twenty years, and given the alarming level of incursions on the closed rail route in County Sligo, and the Minister’s recent statement that he is in favour of protecting old railway routes with greenways, I propose that the Council should write to the Minister seeking funding to support a feasibility study for a greenway to be put in place on the disused railway line from Collooney to the County border at Bellaghy/Charlestown. The project proposal should include a plan to connect this greenway to Sligo through existing trails in Union Wood, with future expansion onwards to Enniskillen via the proposed Collooney-Enniskillen greenway. This connected infrastructure would also have the potential to connect further south and west to the existing Great Western Greenway, creating a tourism product that would allow the west of Ireland to capitalise on the strong and growing European market for cycling and long-distance walking holidays, as well as providing a superb and safe leisure and commuting facility for all the communities along the route.”
    Anybody hear how that went?

    The motion was passed without a vote, however anti greenway councillors kicked up a fuss notably Declan Bree and the two SF (who support the Western Arc concept AKA WOT), cllrs and one FF cllr Jerry Lundy who is against it because we think he doesn't want it going through his land. They were insisting the motion should read "alongside the old railway" cllr Mulvey stuck to his guns that the wording should be on the disused railway, before putting it to a vote - which cllr Mulvey would have won BTW, the motion was amended to read ... " to support a feasibility study for a greenway to be put in place on the disused railway line or alongside the disused railway from Collooney to the County border at Bellaghy/Charlestown." This effectively means the feasibility study which has not yet been approved or funded can look at the entire route as a greenway and the old railway line bedrock foundation can be used for a greenway. It is the nuance of "on" or "alongside" that was critical.

    Effectively sligo coco now supports the idea of a greenway on the route and this is now going to be looked at - in other words the greenway idea is now well and truly "in the system". I think I first posted this idea up on the first WRC thread sometime in 2005, although I can't find the post. At that time all the talk was about the railway but many of us on that thread argued differently. I have had a lot of help and support on the way with arguments for this idea and met with some very interesting people on this journey. It has taken 8/9 years to get sligo coco to finally adopt this idea and now it is as I say "in the system" to be processed I only hope it will come to fruition, but I would like to thank all those who have helped with the idea.

    Many thanks for the kind comments that have been received about this motion and the work we put into persuading a majority of Sligo Councillors to finally accept the arguments we have put forward re the greenway idea on the Sligo Mayo Greenway Facebook page. Arguments for this greenway by the way were floated out long before there was any talk of Great Western greenways and National cycle networks.

    From acorns do oak trees grown and all that. Well done to Dara Mulvey and all the councillors who finally came on board to support the greenway idea.:)


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    What would the cycle from/to Sligo/Colooney be like?
    Is it DC all the way?


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  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,071 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    What would the cycle from/to Sligo/Colooney be like?
    Is it DC all the way?

    The old SC is still there, it was bypassed rather than subsumed.


This discussion has been closed.
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