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Renovating an old house cost?

  • 19-08-2006 3:45pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 97 ✭✭


    Hi everyone

    We're thinking of purchasing an old end of terrace house in Dun Laoghaire that is in need of complete refurbishment/modernisation - it needs central heating added, re-wiring, new windows, an attic conversion, a few walls to be knocked down, proper plumbing installed, some old fireplaces removed, and a brand new bathroom and kitchen.

    Basically, this is just the shell of a house from it's original state and it's has to be brought up to today' s standards in all areas. It's just over 900 sq ft.

    We are also thinking about adding a 2 storey extension to the rear, to add more overall space.

    Has anyone been through doing all this to a house before? We have no idea how much all of this is going to cost and are just trying to get an ballpark estimate on bringing the whole place up to standards. Thanks in advance...


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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 638 ✭✭✭Endymion


    100 - 150k And no, I'm not taking the piss, in reality if could cost allot more then that when you finally go to do it. Thing is, these old houses are money pits, and it's only when you gut them do you get a real idea the what has to be done.


  • Registered Users Posts: 97 ✭✭fixxation


    Carnivore- thanks for that. Ahh it's the sad truth isn't it? At least we have a better idea of what we're up against now... thanks again


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 638 ✭✭✭Endymion


    serious, get a good Quantity suveyor in. He or she will give you a good idea. Allot of people find they price and borrow based on what you decribed above, and then have no money left for stuff like kitchens and bathrooms and painting. remember to take that into account.

    I've worked on a couple renovation jobs, and the thing that stands out more then the cost, is the time. plan for a year tbh, especialyl with that extension.

    I was working in one place where the guy had abit of space, got a quantity surveyor in, and ordered allot of the matierials in from germany, saved him quit allot.


  • Registered Users Posts: 551 ✭✭✭Viking House


    Two questions
    How is the roof and do you need planning permission for the 2 storey extension?
    Rough ballpark guide prices we use are €1k/m2 for renovations and €2k/m2 for extensions.


  • Registered Users Posts: 986 ✭✭✭Jambo


    fixxation,

    You should also check with Dun Laoghaire / Rathdown Council too to check is it a listed building . As from personal experience with close relative selling a house at the moment both inside and out is protected and and renovations / structural changes must meet strict prior approval 1st !!!


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  • Registered Users Posts: 97 ✭✭fixxation


    Yeah definitely- we decided to look for an old house that is about 150k less than what we have, just to be prepared for all the work that will need to go into it... I'm pretty sure we'll have our surveyor in before the end of the week to determine how much work will be needed...

    Viking House- not sure about the roof yet but I hear it's one of the more expensive things to fix if there is trouble with it. Hopefully we'll know the full story on the place once we get the surveyor's report.

    Jambo- fortunately it's not a listed building! (we think!) -- will have to doubt check that but I doubt it...

    Thanks for the replies lads, fingers crossed here on this one


  • Registered Users Posts: 986 ✭✭✭Jambo


    Better check it than not tho - the house I was talking about is my grandmothers in waterford city an end of terrace 3 bed house - looks nothing special and an interested seller pulled out as he could not renovate the way he was wanting to . None of our family knew that the house was listed and its been in the family 40years +


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,290 ✭✭✭ircoha


    fixxation wrote:
    Hi everyone

    We're thinking of purchasing an old end of terrace house in Dun Laoghaire that is in need of complete refurbishment/modernisation - it needs central heating added, re-wiring, new windows, an attic conversion, a few walls to be knocked down, proper plumbing installed, some old fireplaces removed, and a brand new bathroom and kitchen.

    Basically, this is just the shell of a house from it's original state and it's has to be brought up to today' s standards in all areas. It's just over 900 sq ft.

    We are also thinking about adding a 2 storey extension to the rear, to add more overall space.

    Has anyone been through doing all this to a house before? We have no idea how much all of this is going to cost and are just trying to get an ballpark estimate on bringing the whole place up to standards. Thanks in advance...

    Viking house is the key man on this post, and will hopefully correct my ramblings.
    This is my perspective having done a number of renovations.

    Given the scope of the work you have outlined, and u dont specify how large the extension will be, I would give very serious consideration to 'dozing the lot and do a complete re-build.
    My experience is that in the long run it is the cheapest, allows you use the most up to date materials, as well as comply fully and easily with building regs, as well as make it as enegy efficient as possible.

    In addition, I dont think 150 will do it in the current climate


  • Registered Users Posts: 22,734 ✭✭✭✭The Hill Billy


    Fixxation:

    I did a similar job on a similar-sized house 3 years ago. More or less this is what was done:

    Fixed roof (few missing slates).
    Insulated roof (used Conservobond).
    Installed fire-break in previously shared roof-space.
    Removed stairs (dry rot) & replaced, including bannisters.
    Removed all downstairs floors, taking levels down 6 inches.
    Installed DPC, insulation & new concrete floors.
    Removed lath & plaster ceilings, treating all timbers for dry rot & woodworm.
    New fusebox & complete rewiring.
    Installed new plumbing & central heating system (first time in 150+ years that the house had hot running water – EVER – was in October 2004!).
    Removed plaster from & re-pointed internal brick- & stonework.
    150 sq ft extension with felt roof for utility room & bathroom.
    Insulated & slabbed one bedroom, bathroom, utility & hallway.
    Re-plastered 5 rooms.
    New ceilings all rooms.
    Laid solid wood floors throughout.
    Re-painted walls & ceilings throughout.
    Six new windows, 1 front door, 1 patio door. (Mrs Billy is still waiting on the patio to go with the door. :D )
    Hardwood window boards.
    Countertop & 2 carcasses in kitchen (have mainly free-standing kitchen).
    New sink, toilet, shower unit in bathroom.

    It cost me €35k (materials, electrician, plumber, plasterer, brickie, some specialist carpentry/joinery). I did most of the work myself with the exception of all electrical work, the block-work for the extension, some plastering, most of the plumbing.

    It also cost me evenings & weekends for 11 months (could have got it done quicker had I known what I was doing at the start - I'm a desk-jockey usually) & lots of pints for mates who gave a dig out.

    TBH - I could have saved a lot of time by cutting out the restoration of internal features but it would have looked sh1te compared to what we have today.

    Best of luck!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 189 ✭✭dools


    Fixxation,

    Like Hill Billy, we got work done on old house last year and it cost €35k. We moved a couple of months ago and are currently going through the same process.

    For €35k we got:
    Complete rewire
    Comple replumb (kept existing boiler)
    New fitted Kitched (Vinlyl wrapped Maple Shaker - not a solid wood one)
    New stair bannister
    re-slab of ceilings (stipple) and all walls skimmed downstairs
    New doors and architraves throughout
    Wall knocked through between kitchen and dining room
    semi solid flooring all downstairs
    Kitchen tiled
    Alarm fitted
    attic stairs (stira) and a small area floored
    Box room skimmed
    New carpet in 3 bedrooms, stairs and landing
    New windows throughout, front door, back door and porch
    Roller blinds installed
    New Fireplace

    That was about it for €35k. In addition, you have to add in the cost of paints, light fittings,etc

    HTH

    D


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  • Registered Users Posts: 97 ✭✭fixxation


    ircoha, Hill Billy, dools:

    Thanks a million for the [very!] detailed replies, I'm amazed that both of you [Hill Billy, dools] could get all of that done for under €50k. My girlfriend and I aren't the most skilled with building and renovations etc, and plus with many other commitments on the side, we'd have to pay builders and the other relevant professionals to do most of the work as free time isn't really on our side right now. This is where the concern is, as it would probably be more in the area of 150k+, similar to what ircoha and Viking House has said.

    I think the next step as definitely to have a builder or surveyor in to check it out as Carnivore mentioned... we're kind of stuck in the middle on this one, because we love the house, but just really have to figure out if we have enough to put into it now to make it habitable, and then do the rest later [extension, etc] -- the biggest fear is getting halfway through and then realizing the funds run out, we're just trying to be as cautious as possible throughout the whole idea to make sure that doesn't happen.... will definitely get a builder in now to check it out and see what the story is.

    Thanks for all the help.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 189 ✭✭dools


    No Probs Fixxation,

    As I said, we are currently renovating our new (old) house. The plumbers and sparks are in and we have the windows and doors done. You can certainly get a lot of work done for €30 - €35k but have certainly noticed the hikes in costs since this time last year. We are getting the same job done and using the same tradesmen. Th windows cost €9.5k (v €8.5k last year). The plumber is costing €9k this time (v €7k last time) as we had to get a new boiler installed and copper has increased 100% in cost.

    You really need to decide whether you are going to go ahead with the extension or not. The renovation process is very dirty and obtrusive. We have moved in with the inlaws for a month while the work is being done as sometimes there is no water nor electricity in the house plus the floorboards have been ripped up for the lads to run pipes and cables. If you go ahead and do the existing house and then do the extension at a later stage, you will have to go through the whole rigmarole twice. Would'nt fancy it personally. If funds are tight, could you do the existing house and just add a single storey extension?

    Keep us up to date

    D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 638 ✭✭✭Endymion


    It's very unlikely you would be allowed to completely knock an old terrace house, regardless of it being listed or not. One of the mains thigns about redevelopements is that they have to stay true to the local area. So if you have a row of red brick terrace houses you can't exactly build what ever you want.

    Fixation, The key thing in Hill Billy's post is that he did most of the work himself. Now that can either save you money or cost you money, depending on how competent you are. And as he said, it will take you longer, savings on labour could end up going on increased material cost. It's not unusual to see 20 -30 % increases in matierial costs in a year.


  • Registered Users Posts: 97 ✭✭fixxation


    Hi again everyone

    Well, the builder has been in and we have a quote. The quote was, ehm... higher than our budget as expected so we really have to have a serious think about how we're going to make this work if it's going to work at all.

    The figure to modernise the whole current (old) house as it stands was around 100k. The 2-storey extension adds another 100k on top of the work in the old house alone, and that suddenly puts the project cost 200k when the budget is only 100k to begin with.

    As many of you have said this isn't going to be an easy project to take on, especially when myself and girlfriend know very little about renovations and also wouldn't have a lot of time to manage it properly, which could be a massive downfall of the whole project and we could end-up in a disasterous situation.

    The biggest problem is that we'll need at least the ground floor extension to get the kitchen in properly- the current kitchen is 13'x7' and there isn't any room to spare inside the house except for going out to the back. The idea of just doing the ground floor extension is good for getting the kitchen in properly, but I'd say it would be cheaper to have them do the full 2-storey extension at the same time as I'm guessing it would be cheaper than doing each level at separate stages. Doing them at the same time will take all the money in the budget and then the rest of the old original house is left in it's original state, which isn't the best either having half a nice house and half an old unwired/no plumbing/no heating old house.

    To top it all off, we haven't even bought this house yet. We don't want to make an offer unless we're confident that we can get something decent and livable with our small budget of 100k. Planning permission will still have to be applied for, and if it's rejected based on the architect drawings then this whole thing is a waste of time and money... :( We could apply for planning permission now, but I doubt the owners of the house have 3+ months to wait around for us to find out of it's rejected or accepted. It's hard to say if they would even accept an offer on the house subject to pp but I'm sure we'll find out soon enough. Based on what other owners on the street have done, it doesn't appear that it will be a problem to get permission for the 2-storey extension, and 1-storey I suppose is even easier as long as we don't go over the maximum square footage allowed.

    What do most of you think about all this, would it be crazy to put a bid on this house before obtaining planning permission? Has anyone here been in a similar situation where money is tight, and done a single storey extension first and then the top floor part of the extension at a later point in time?

    Cheers for the replies lads, really appreciate it here!

    The Renovate House rookie Fixxation


  • Registered Users Posts: 22,734 ✭✭✭✭The Hill Billy


    Fixxation:

    Do you really, really need to build on out the back at the moment? I ask because the house I bought & renovated was way smaller to our previous house - but we still managed to make it work without extending.

    Basically we moved from a standard 3-bed semi into a house with 3 rooms. 1 bedroom for us, one for the child & a kitchen/living room. I built a small extension (5m x 2.5m) to the rear for a utility room & bathroom.

    Anyway, myself & Mrs Billy did quite a bit of research into space-saving techniques & the like, & things have worked out really well. Even down to simple things like converting the old fireplace into a larder, having sliding doors on kitchen units/furniture.

    When you get down to it - you don't need half the space that you think you do.

    Best of luck with whatever you do.


  • Registered Users Posts: 97 ✭✭fixxation


    Hill Billy- thanks for the reply. Yeah, when it really comes down to it, we don't absolutely need the extension at all. It would be really nice of course, but the more I think of it after reading advice from all of you and other advice from friends, it's just not feasbile at this point in time to put an extension on the house and then leave the rest of it as it is (in it's current old original state).

    We've decided to redo everything on the inside, make it livable and make the most out of the space, and then leave the extension(s) until a later date. After all, we'll have the house and the land, and it's not a necessity to have the extension now. It's unfortunate that we couldn't afford to do both the house and the extension with our budget, but I think for peace of mind, we'll be much better of (financially and mentally) by taking this route.

    Many thanks to all of you for your advice in this situation here... all is looking good now moving forward.

    Cheers
    A.


  • Registered Users Posts: 87 ✭✭damiand


    Interesting discussion. Thwo calculation were never menetioned (I think),
    1. the cost of the architect - €3 to 8,000 +++and
    2. Developmnet Contributions attached to any grant of permission for the extension. Dont know how much that is.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 29 MonaLisa


    Hi All,
    Just a quick Question, Any of you kind people know and Honest/Excellent builder that can convert a Garage and Build an extension... Please PM Me with details if possible. Your help is much appreciated.

    The property is located in Malahide/Portmarnock.

    many Thanks
    Mona


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,658 ✭✭✭old boy


    fixxation, the old lady and i renovated our house a few years back done it all ourselves, went to the liberary rented a few books read and reread them, then started to work, very hard at the start but i can say lack of dosh is a good teacher, done up one room at the time, moved in early as possible, no rent to pay, convert rent money into cement wiring etc, once you have a place to eat and sleep you are on a winner. then you are in no rush, take a weekend off when you like, also remember, good used servicable furniture and fixtures will do until your are finished, BECAUSE THERE WILL BE DUST DUST DUST. also 3x2s with plasterboard attached will hide a multitude, our project cost us 12,000. i was offered 200,000 for it we felt quite chuffed, the old lady then done up the kitchen that cost 8000, if you purchase good used doors and windows, or new ones, you can then make the openings to fit, most manufacturers have unclaimed, or seconds, in stock and are glad to part with them.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,168 ✭✭✭secman


    Mona Lisa. I have posted you a private message concerning a local builder that I could reccommend to you.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 140 ✭✭MagDee


    I would love to renovate and old house but have no idea of how to find one. all houses on myhome and daft are well looked after and owners put money to make them look better to sell them better. but since i have a weird taste i would be doing painting and all anyway so why pay twice?


  • Hosted Moderators Posts: 10,661 ✭✭✭✭John Mason


    MagDee wrote:
    I would love to renovate and old house but have no idea of how to find one. all houses on myhome and daft are well looked after and owners put money to make them look better to sell them better. but since i have a weird taste i would be doing painting and all anyway so why pay twice?


    err, i found my house on myhome.ie and it had to gutted, cost me about 20-25k to do all the works to date ...........three years later i am still not finished :(


  • Registered Users Posts: 22,734 ✭✭✭✭The Hill Billy


    MagDee:

    When we found our place it wasn't even described as a house - it was on the estate agent's list described as a "property". They had no advertisement for it - even in their offices. It was on a typed-up list of available properties on their office counter.

    What you are looking for is desirable, but not high-value. Estate agents usually don't post many "do-er up-ers" on the net. You would be better off doing some leg-work & calling in, explaining exactly what you are looking for & seeing what they have on offer rather than relying on MyHome.


  • Registered Users Posts: 984 ✭✭✭NextSteps


    MagDee wrote:
    I would love to renovate and old house but have no idea of how to find one. all houses on myhome and daft are well looked after and owners put money to make them look better to sell them better. but since i have a weird taste i would be doing painting and all anyway so why pay twice?
    There's a big difference between painting (and other finishing touches) and renovations. Take it from me, a house that needs to be renovated will take about 2 years of your life - and that's with contracting out all the actual work. You will still spend 2 years talking, thinking and worrying about the place, every bloody day.


  • Hosted Moderators Posts: 10,661 ✭✭✭✭John Mason


    UB wrote:
    There's a big difference between painting (and other finishing touches) and renovations. Take it from me, a house that needs to be renovated will take about 2 years of your life - and that's with contracting out all the actual work. You will still spend 2 years talking, thinking and worrying about the place, every bloody day.


    i agree totally, everyone thinks its going to be fun to do up a house, its not, it bloody hard work, stressfull and there will be many many tears shed. it you think the work is going to cost 20k, i would suggest you take a loan for 40k every timescale and budget you have should be doubled


  • Registered Users Posts: 22,734 ✭✭✭✭The Hill Billy


    MagDee:

    Are you thinking of renovating or redecorating? If you gave us an idea of the type of changes you would make to a house it would help us give you better advice.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 140 ✭✭MagDee


    it would have to be livable on some level. i can change windows and installations alright but as little as possible of course to avoid pain in the backside. generally redecorating only would be ideal but i'm not great on miracles :) but i would need to move in at least to one room, to have hot water access and roof over my head. and if before winter - some kind of heating wouldn' hurt.


  • Registered Users Posts: 22,734 ✭✭✭✭The Hill Billy


    So it is a real doer-uper that you're after. Good for you! Get out there & start knocking on the estate agent's doors. Also, if you see a run-down place that you are interested in - you could always approach the owners directly or through an agent to see if they were willing to sell.
    MagDee wrote:
    i would need to ... have hot water access and ... and if before winter - some kind of heating wouldn' hurt.
    Wuss! :p


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7 D72


    Hello,

    Some good information in this thread.I have just purchased a small cottage 800( not including attic conversion that will be done )sqft that also needs compete refurbishment.Just wondering fixxation how you got on and does anyone believe 60k is enough to get up and running. I've reasonably good diy knowledge but my main concern is that the house requires rewiring , plumbing and a new heating system so I am concerned with regards to getting that done as im not sure when it can be done.For example Does rewiring only require 2 fixes or is it back and forth and back and forth and when is the begining stage. Also the internal walls are solid concrete and we need to knock quite a few of them so whats the load bearing issues as we are also getting an attic conversion done so can we design that to place the complete roof load bearing onto the side walls and then do whatever we want inside. ( single story ). ANy comments woould be much appreciated even if they are not directly realted to above questions


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2 Damfino


    Hi

    Great thread! Some very informative comments.

    We too are tempted by a renovation/restoration jobbie on a mid terraced house in Dublin, around 1000 sq/foot

    Big fear for us is whether we can future proof the home, and create a sell on option in years to come. Big disadvantage at present, is the fact that you'd have to go through the house to get to the garden. Also size of main bathroom upstairs is relatively small, with no current ensuites upstairs. Also no utility bathroom downstairs.

    We would hope to put on single floor extension across the rear of the house, and create an open plan layout with existing living room. (I.e kitchen come dining area, and put in double patio door) Existing kitchen at front of house would need to be turned in to seperate living room.

    Meeting with builder over next few days, so will be interesting to see how accurate my guesstimates are below??

    Extension: 65
    Kitchen: (Would be small area to fill, so I'm imagine 7k-10k)
    Electrics 10k (Family Friend would help us out, but still need materials)
    Flooring 5-8k
    Plumbing and heating 15k ++ (Depends on what could be done upstairs)
    Windows (7 windows frames x double glazing )15k
    Shower (2k)
    Doors 5k
    Internal restructuring (We would need to change layout to hallway and knock through existing utility room at back, keeping connection with garden, seperate from rest of house.) 10k

    150k would be needed to make it habitable... Major ouch on the cashflow, but alot of 3 bed new developments in dublin, do not come to the market with space upstairs in the bedrooms, big gardens stc.

    Could be worth the risk, or could be stuck with a mid-terrace house for life and in debt


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