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Shootings In France

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    #152
    Ned_led16
    Registered Users Posts: 329 ✭✭Ned_led16


    Yes because i dont believe in hell - and i believe that Shmuck has avoided punishment for atrocious crimes - and he has promoted this kind of crime world wide - thats my belief - i dont think he is with 1000 virgins - i dont think hes with 1000 monsters - id like if he was with 1000 monsters. I believe in reincarnation!

    I dont believe in revenge - but that Punk deserved life in an Israeli max security prison! anyway whats done is done & he wouldnt have ended up in an Israeli prison now!

    I am surprised Mossad were not onto him b4


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    #153
    SamHarris
    Registered Users Posts: 1,633 ✭✭✭SamHarris


    RichieC wrote: »
    :rolleyes: Yea, the Guardian is extreme...

    It certainly is extremly biased, if not extreme. It caters to an audience, and is very aware that this audience enjoys having their own ideas parroted back to them, not challenged. That it is you that jumps to the defence of the Guardian indicates exactly the type of person it aims it content at.


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    #154
    RichieC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,334 ✭✭✭RichieC


    SamHarris wrote: »
    It certainly is extremly biased, if not extreme. It caters to an audience, and is very aware that this audience enjoys having their own ideas parroted back to them, not challenged. That it is you that jumps to the defence of the Guardian indicates exactly the type of person it aims it content at.

    Jump to the defence by pointing out the Gaurdian isnt an extreme news paper? are you fkin kidding me?

    You are pretty much a single issue poster here. A Washington consensus stooge. now do not post at me again. It won't affect your pay.


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    #155
    SamHarris
    Registered Users Posts: 1,633 ✭✭✭SamHarris


    Toby Take a Bow wrote: »
    I'd love to know how these figures correspond with Arabic feelings in the area towards Jews before the rise of Zionism in the area. It doesn't make it okay, but to ignore the historical reason for division in the area will mean current policies will be replicated again and again.

    Again, you are merely making excuses for rascism, like it or not. Your also clearly entirely unaware of the manifesto of the groups that carry out attacks like this (if this guy was a member or not).


    Toby Take a Bow wrote: »
    Oh, I'm well-aware of the problems in Islam, and I probably get my news from the same sources that you do (bar the Daily Mail), however my point was asking how Islam was the most intolerant religion. Your polls suggest a growing intolerance amongst Muslims in Britain. How does that compare to Muslims in Singapore? China (and is their 'extremism' okay because it's against a totalitarian state)? Dublin? You even mention yourself about the more 'tolerant' believers in Islam, so I guess you allow for differences within the religion, and then talk about it as if it was one huge organism.

    No I talk about it as though there is a large consensus within said religion, as the polls clearly show.

    The other poll has opinions throughout the middle east. They differ but not by much. Some are more radical, some less.

    Ah so you have another contender of a major religion which is similarily willing to use violence and extremism? Please, show us which one and evidence for that their intolerance is on the same scale, or as likely to lead to outward violence. I await with baited breath.

    No I acknowledged the violence almost entirelly comes from several (large) sects within Islam. If you cant carry that thought through to the end of the post, its really not my problem.
    Toby Take a Bow wrote: »
    So, extremist Islam is a problem? No argument there. I wouldn't see a huge difference between extremist Islam and some of the extremist Hassidic sects out in 'Samaria and Judea'.

    Barring, of course, the massive element of numbers (judaism is not a major world religion) this is entirelly irrelevant . "Oh the JEWS can be just as bad? Well then!" The massive intolerance within Islam is merely an illusion created by enormous statistical evidence! Well argued.

    Id also like to see some actual evidence for this, just out of curiousity.


    Toby Take a Bow wrote: »
    You could say the same about some of the shows on CNN/Fox News. People who immerse themselves in one kind of story will be quite prone to generalising. Regarding the far left, that can be a problem but often it's a deliberate misinterpretation of an attempt to look beyond black-and-white interpretations of the events.

    Really? Ok, I dont really care. My point was that discussion within Islam is still far more preoccupied with their hand ringing over their perceived vilification. See any editorial or piece on Al Jazeera, Press TV

    The far left are just as likely to live in a monochromatic world as the far right. Just because they often switch it around does not mean they suddenly have an enormously complex and well informed view of moderen politics.


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    #156
    SamHarris
    Registered Users Posts: 1,633 ✭✭✭SamHarris


    RichieC wrote: »
    Jump to the defence by pointing out the Gaurdian isnt an extreme news paper? are you fkin kidding me?

    You are pretty much a single issue poster here. A Washington consensus stooge. now do not post at me again. It won't affect your pay.

    No problem, you rarely have anything to say that isnt inane on the face of it, hence why I usually ignore you.


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    #157
    Andy!!
    Site Banned Posts: 1,678 ✭✭✭Andy!!


    MadYaker wrote: »
    Why do extremist muslims hate jews now?

    lol


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    #158
    SamHarris
    Registered Users Posts: 1,633 ✭✭✭SamHarris


    Nodin wrote: »
    I see my OP plea to avoid sectarianism has fallen on deaf ears....



    Nobody denies theres a problem with extremist Islamic ideology. Another problem is the kind of scaremongering, generalisations and nonsense fired at the muslim community in general.



    ...dear o dear....

    Yes recogonising the part Islam played in Mohammeds attack on a Jewish school. It really sickens the heart, doesnt it?

    Knock yourself out and point to one piece of statistical evidence I gave that is not fact. It was not a generalisation, it was an evidence based portayal of a given community. It is not a "gernalisation" because it makes you uncomfortable, Im afraid.

    Lets play a little game then, shall we? You list the al Jazeera articles that you can find that deal with the massive intolerance and rascism prevailent throughout the Arab world, I will find you the articles in which they seek to portray the region as under attack by "imperialist" forces for no good reason, and we shall see who comes out on top? Please, take your time. Youll need it.


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    #159
    ejmaztec
    Registered Users Posts: 23,974 ✭✭✭✭ejmaztec


    I think he was just a nutter who decided to latch onto Islamic fundamentalism as an excuse to justify his nuttiness. He was obviously sulking because he failed when he tried to join the Foreign Legion.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/world/2012/0322/1224313703359.html?via=rel

    He was destined to be a psychotic twat whatever he got involved in.


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    #160
    SamHarris
    Registered Users Posts: 1,633 ✭✭✭SamHarris


    Tzar Chasm wrote: »
    My question is about definitions

    Was this guy
    An Islamic Nutter
    Or
    A Nutter who happened to be Islamic

    ie were there verified links to other nutter organizations, or did h e just decide off his own bat to slaughter his way to paradise?

    I doubt the fact the school was full of Jewish kids was just a coincidence.


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    #161
    thunderdog
    Registered Users Posts: 2,675 ✭✭✭thunderdog


    Great coverage of this story on Fox news

    http://i.imgur.com/h8NeV.jpg


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    #162
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    SamHarris wrote: »
    Yes recogonising the part Islam played in Mohammeds attack on a Jewish school. It really sickens the heart, doesnt it?

    Knock yourself out and point to one piece of statistical evidence I gave that is not fact. It was not a generalisation, it was an evidence based portrayal of a given community. It is not a "gernalisation" because it makes you uncomfortable, Im afraid.

    Lets play a little game then, shall we? You list the al Jazeera articles that you can find that deal with the massive intolerance and racism prevalent throughout the Arab world, I will find you the articles in which they seek to portray the region as under attack by "imperialist" forces for no good reason, and we shall see who comes out on top? Please, take your time. Youll need it.


    .....so am I supposed to do that, or go off and get a large number of articles from Israeli sources that are "based around a tone of self righteousness and self pity" as a sort of counter?

    Let's do something a bit different - given the size of the French muslim population, and taking your supposed 'accurate' surveys as just that - tell me why was that incident so isolated?


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    #163
    yoyo
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 11,005 Mod ✭✭✭✭yoyo


    thunderdog wrote: »
    Great coverage of this story on Fox news

    http://i.imgur.com/h8NeV.jpg

    I really hope that is photoshopped, if not :eek::eek: . Anyways apparently a sniper took him out, glad really, it means we won't have to hear all about his mental illness or whatever like the norwegian bloke supposidly has :rolleyes::rolleyes:

    Nick

    My Beer Glass collection site 🍺

    My Irish Callcards site



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    #164
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    thunderdog wrote: »
    Great coverage of this story on Fox news

    http://i.imgur.com/h8NeV.jpg

    ....the sad thing is, its only about 50/50 its a photoshop...


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    #165
    Wattle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,075 ✭✭✭Wattle


    There's a couple of things that are a bit odd about this. Firstly that he jumped to his death. Now maybe I'm wrong but I thought I heard in reports that he was living in a ground floor flat. The other thing was that he was 'firing madly' as he jumped. If your jumping from a great height (and it must have been to cause his death) how do you get it together to fire at people while you are falling?

    Maybe we are still in the midst of some confusion in the aftermath with conflicting reports but those details sound a bit fishy.


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    #166
    SamHarris
    Registered Users Posts: 1,633 ✭✭✭SamHarris


    Nodin wrote: »
    .....so am I supposed to do that, or go off and get a large number of articles from Israeli sources that are "based around a tone of self righteousness and self pity" as a sort of counter?

    Let's do something a bit different - given the size of the French muslim population, and taking your supposed 'accurate' surveys as just that - tell me why was that incident so isolated?

    Once again your missing the point. :rolleyes: and as usual Israel is used as an excuse to exuse any amount of childish, unproductive behaviour in the Muslim community. Do you write for al Jazeera per chance?

    Ok, so the polls are merely created by such organistation as PEW to make Muslims look bad :rolleyes: another powerful argument. Any evidence of this? People really can ignore any amount of empirical evidence they like and form their own opinions. They cant have their own facts.

    Just because a given percentage support such behaviour (usually in Israel but not uncommonly elsewhere to target civilians) does not mean they will then act on their opinions. Very basic stuff that. Regarldess a significant number are willing to justify it. You dont think that consitutes an enormous intolerance?

    What is your argument, exactly? That the polls are all false, that the muslim community does not have a significant minority willing to give their nod of approval, or be considered "extremist" by Western standards? If so then dissprove the polls and show evidence of the opposite.

    Or is it that this not a problem, that drawing attention to these sociological facts is completly uncalled for? You would be hard pressed to argue that anywhere.


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    #167
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    SamHarris wrote: »
    Once again (.........)pressed to argue that anywhere.

    What I'm doing is pointing to the lack of evidence in action for your hyperbole.

    And the rather amusing way that you keep trying to tarnish a whole religion while complaining about "intolerance".


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    #168
    RichieC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,334 ✭✭✭RichieC


    Nodin wrote: »
    What I'm doing is pointing to the lack of evidence in action for your hyperbole.

    And the rather amusing way that you keep trying to tarnish a whole religion while complaining about "intolerance".

    Sam's just doing what he's payed to do.


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    #169
    Seachmall
    Registered Users Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭Seachmall


    Wattle wrote: »
    If your jumping from a great height (and it must have been to cause his death) how do you get it together to fire at people while you are falling?

    Gun in hand.
    Jump from building.
    Muscles tense (incl. fingers).
    Trigger is pulled.


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    #170
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    SamHarris wrote: »
    Ok, so the polls are merely created by such organistation as PEW to make Muslims look bad :rolleyes: another powerful argument.

    Your polls come from 2006, I know for a fact that PEW have done far more recent polls. I find it odd that you have chosen such old polls imho.


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    #171
    SamHarris
    Registered Users Posts: 1,633 ✭✭✭SamHarris


    Nodin wrote: »
    What I'm doing is pointing to the lack of evidence in action for your hyperbole.

    And the rather amusing way that you keep trying to tarnish a whole religion while complaining about "intolerance".

    . . . You mean the polls are not evidence? Where, exactly, does the polls not support my contention?

    What you are doing is ignoring everything that annoys you by challenging your assumption with empirical evidence. If you dont want to base your world on real evidence, knock yourself out.

    Ugh once again (this is the third time Ive said it) Islam is massively diverse and ranges from the extremly violent and intolerant to almost pacifist. REally you have an awful habit of doing this three or four times before you actually seem to read things properly.


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    #172
    SamHarris
    Registered Users Posts: 1,633 ✭✭✭SamHarris


    wes wrote: »
    Your polls come from 2006, I know for a fact that PEW have done far more recent polls. I find it odd that you have chosen such old polls imho.

    Yes Muslim opinion has become vastly more tolerant since them polls! Please, show us this new and encouraging evidence?

    Im afraid its not easy to poll 10 000's of people over dozens of countries, so its not the type of thing done every year.

    Far too easy to ignore what the polls explicitly say, though.


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    #173
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    SamHarris wrote: »
    Yes Muslim opinion has become vastly more tolerant since them polls! Please, show us this new and encouraging evidence?

    Im afraid its not easy to poll 10 000's of people over dozens of countries, so its not the type of thing done every year.

    Far too easy to ignore what the polls explicitly say, though.

    And of course support for Hamas is as simplistic as you point out, those countries are entirely relevant to French muslim opinion and on and on.......

    None of which answers my earlier question. If its all as hysterically bad as you try to make out - which is what you're doing, while talking a different tune out the other side of your mouth - then why are such incidents in France so rare?


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    #174
    SamHarris
    Registered Users Posts: 1,633 ✭✭✭SamHarris


    RichieC wrote: »
    Sam's just doing what he's payed to do.

    I doubt the American government and people in general care too much about Irish public opinion at all but I dont think Im going too far in saying that, and dont take this too personally, they dont give a sht about what is said on semi official Irish national boards. Indeed, I doubt they even have ONE agent working to try and discuss muslim public opinion. Im sure that will be difficult to get your head around, so it will be fine if you dont bother coming back for a few days.


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    #175
    RichieC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,334 ✭✭✭RichieC


    Sure thing, Toady.


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    #176
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    SamHarris wrote: »
    Yes Muslim opinion has become vastly more tolerant since them polls! Please, show us this new and encouraging evidence?
    .

    The new poll shows everyone opinions actually.

    For example in Israel, Muslims are viewed pretty badly, with only 19% approval, which isn't much better than views for Jews in majority Muslim countries, and I would reckon the figure is that high due to the Palestinian Muslim populace (something like 15%).

    You can see the most recent version here:
    Muslim-Western Tensions Persist

    I would say the mutual animosity between Jews and Muslims, is very much due to the Israel/Palestine conflict.


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    #177
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Utter scumbag plank turns to a group of other utter dirtbags because they welcome him in with open arms and he becomes an even bigger more dangerous prat.

    Islamist fundamentalist is a secondary concern. The same pattern occurs countless times... creepy weakling white kids getting co-opted by far right groups, they like it because they get a sense of belonging/power. The groups like to take them in because they are ripe for manipulation.

    He was obviously a bit of a dimwit at the end of the day.


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    #178
    SamHarris
    Registered Users Posts: 1,633 ✭✭✭SamHarris


    Nodin wrote: »
    And of course support for Hamas is as simplistic as you point out, those countries are entirely relevant to French muslim opinion and on and on.......

    None of which answers my earlier question. If its all as hysterically bad as you try to make out - which is what you're doing, while talking a different tune out the other side of your mouth - then why are such incidents in France so rare?

    Your losing your own train of thought, my original reply was to the contention that Islam in general is a tolerant religion. According to all empirical evidence, this is not the case.

    If you see those polls as "hysterically bad" then really thats up to you. Again, Im afraid I didnt run around and pose as 1000's of Muslims to answer the poll, thereby making them look more extreme than they ACTUALLY are in this thread. But if you have evidence that other peopel and groups did this, please bring it forward.

    Ive contradicted myself? Where?

    Ive directly addressed this. The polls clearly show support for these incidents (though this one in particular) in a significant minority of respondents. That does not mean every single one of them is waiting with a gun in and a scooter to carry one out. However it certainly does not mean that the people that believe apostates should be stoned are suddenly "tolerant".


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    #179
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    SamHarris wrote: »
    ........... The polls clearly show support for these incidents (though this one in particular) in a significant minority of respondents. ..........

    ....what incidents do the polls show support for, exactly?


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    #180
    Wattle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,075 ✭✭✭Wattle


    Seachmall wrote: »
    Gun in hand.
    Jump from building.
    Muscles tense (incl. fingers).
    Trigger is pulled.

    Wouldn't gravity take over and wrench the gun from your hand as you're falling? The actual fall would take seconds so how many shots would he have had time to make? Just sounds pretty unlikely to me.


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    #181
    SamHarris
    Registered Users Posts: 1,633 ✭✭✭SamHarris


    wes wrote: »
    The new poll shows everyone opinions actually.

    For example in Israel, Muslims are viewed pretty badly, with only 19% approval, which isn't much better than views for Jews in majority Muslim countries, and I would reckon the figure is that high due to the Palestinian Muslim populace (something like 15%).

    You can see the most recent version here:
    Muslim-Western Tensions Persist

    I would say the mutual animosity between Jews and Muslims, is very much due to the Israel/Palestine conflict.

    It isnt? The views of "jews" in Egypt and Jordan is 2% favourable, Lebanon 3% Indonesia scores highest with a resounding 9% ... Were you hoping I couldnt read or something?

    Even if your original statement WAS right, once again we have the powerful argument that because Israelis are not tolerant, the 99%, 98% and as low as 90% that dislike Jews in Muslim countries are suddenly to be considered tolerant. Ah logic!

    Also you will find that poll does not in fact measure the same things as the one I polled, it measures the perception of each other. The original measured stuff as diverse as support for violent attacks amoungst Muslims.

    Even in your own poll, if you had bothered to read on the majority of Muslims view us as "immoral, fanatical, greedy, selfish, arrogant and violent" . . . But sure Im sure this will be disregarded to as yet another overture towards tolerance.


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