Shootings In France

Chuck Stone · 21-03-2012 4:12pm

SeanW wrote: »

Oh my, a Muslim who hates Jews. That's such a surprise, it's TOTALLY unprecedented.

I mean, it's not like Muslims teach their children to hate Jews at 3 years old or anything

What are you trying to say?

It's difficult to make it out with the sound of your axe grinding.

wes · 21-03-2012 4:45pm

SeanW wrote: »

When Anders Brevhik went on his murdering rampage there a while back, the PC-Left on this board gleefully siezed the opportunity to tar everyone is was skeptical of multiculturalism or anyway critical of Islam with the "lunatic murder" brush.

That would be a fair point, if the far-right (and a lot of the regular right as well) weren't already operating under those rules for at least the last decade. Pretending that some how that this sort of the thing only started with Brevik, is simply absurd.

Either way, this is way off topic. Remember the thread is about a man who murdered a bunch of innocent people, including children.

Nodin · 21-03-2012 5:04pm

SeanW wrote: »

When Anders Brevhik went on his murdering rampage there a while back, the PC-Left on this board gleefully siezed the opportunity to tar everyone is was skeptical of multiculturalism or anyway critical of Islam with the "lunatic murder" brush..

Yes, I clearly remember people saying "Those moderate bastards with a rational argument should be locked up" etc and so on.

SeanW wrote: »

Considering that these appear to be the rules, I wonder if now is not a good time to ask if there's a link between Islamic rhetoric (y'know, like 3 year olds "knowing" that Jews are apes, pigs & Prophet murderers, and that Muslims have a religious duty to hate Jews etc) and the anti-Semitic acts of the people who are obviously raised on this kind of rhetoric.

.....taking France as an example, I'd imagine its rather distant, given the infrequency of such events and the size of the French muslim population.

Batsy · 21-03-2012 7:54pm

Sisko wrote: »

Probably would be if France continuously claimed to be the best country in the world.

And it doesn't?

BlaasForRafa · 21-03-2012 7:59pm

Batsy wrote: »

And it doesn't?

Have you any evidence that it does?

BlaasForRafa · 21-03-2012 8:02pm

tigger123 wrote: »

It's a good point, people confuse extremist behavior with the whole faith.

Possibly because Islam is probably the most intolerant faith there is.

Nodin · 21-03-2012 8:07pm

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Possibly because Islam is probably the most intolerant faith there is.

...certain sects in certain places, much like Hinduism. Islam being more widespread, however, it has the worse reputation.

tigger123 · 21-03-2012 8:20pm

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Possibly because Islam is probably the most intolerant faith there is.

And what are you basing that on?

Toby Take a Bow · 21-03-2012 9:16pm

tigger123 wrote: »

And what are you basing that on?

Sweeping generalisations backed up with anecdotal evidence, I'd say.

Snake Plisken · 21-03-2012 10:07pm

Hope the shoot that Islamist Nutter holed up in his apartment in the balls and leave him bleed out! Also I would suggest with all these various extremist groups around I'd say there is a good chance that something bad will happen this summer in London with the Olympics taking place!

BlaasForRafa · 21-03-2012 10:30pm

tigger123 wrote: »

And what are you basing that on?

Just stating the obvious really.

blanchdub · 21-03-2012 11:14pm

@Toby Take a Bow, I am not sure it is the most intolerant religion..but the Quran is defenity not tolerant at all. It is clearly violent and intolerant (especially if you are a non believer/free thinker or/and a woman) ... worth reading to make your own mind.

Toby Take a Bow · 21-03-2012 11:54pm

blanchdub wrote: »

@Toby Take a Bow, I am not sure it is the most intolerant religion..but the Quran is defenity not tolerant at all. It is clearly violent and intolerant (especially if you are a non believer/free thinker or/and a woman) ... worth reading to make your own mind.

I never said it wasn't intolerant. But I'd love to know why BlaasForRafa thinks it's the most intolerant, preferably with examples.

Nodin · 22-03-2012 12:06am

Three explosions have been heard at a block of flats in the French city of Toulouse where a man suspected of killing seven people has been holed up.
The city's deputy mayor confirmed an assault on the flat, surrounded by police for nearly 24 hours, had begun.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-17469878

sid waddell · 22-03-2012 12:26am

Number of people killed by Islamist terrorist attacks in Europe since 2005 until this attack: 0
Number of Islamist terrorist attacks in Europe in 2009 out of a total of 294: 1
Number of Islamist terrorist attacks in Europe in 2010 out a total of 249: 3

Of course you could always take the American approach with this and declare the suspect insane in which case it's not terrorism and the number of people killed by Islamic terrorism in Europe since 2005 remains at 0.

I wouldn't do that though as I think it was a sickening terrorist outrage.

But a bit of context doesn't go amiss.

Read this and read the facts about the supposed "threat to our civilisation".
http://www.loonwatch.com/2011/11/updated-europol-data-less-than-1-of-terrorist-attacks-by-muslims/

tolosenc · 22-03-2012 1:20am

I used to live in Toulouse. There is a dynamic in France, particularly in the Midi, which is hard to really grasp without actually spending time there. For the most part, Algerians have totally failed to integrate into the society as a whole and live in ghettoised neighbourhoods of tower block government apartments. The level of distrust and hatred between the Algerians (the majority of whom are born and raised in France) and the French is startling. The two do not mix. Similar in ways to the Traveller community here. There is a high amount of crime in these areas and they are quite hostile to outsiders (as I found out to the tune of a broken collar bone at one point).

As a result, there is a feeling among Muslims that they are second class citizens (although any discrimination is either non-existant or mostly self inflicted). This has caused riots in Paris a few years back, and in no way helped in the case of this young man.

That might sound like I'm defending him, actually. I'm not. Firing squad at dawn is fine by me.

But to act in the way that he did is disgusting. I know that they want him alive, but I don't think that that is desireable. With Brehvik in Norway basically being deemed unfit to stand trial, a similar thing could happen here and he could have his punishment vastly reduced. Any non-compliance and the RAID (French SWAT) will shoot to kill.

But yeah, kind of numbing to see your old metro station crawling with soldiers and something so horrible happening in places you know so well.

sid waddell wrote: »

Of course you could always take the American approach with this and declare the suspect insane in which case it's not terrorism and the number of people killed by Islamic terrorism in Europe since 2005 remains at 0.

Well, no. It's actually 7 now.

Jack_Russell · 22-03-2012 2:10am

i cannot see how they are gonna take this nutter alive.

he'll want to be killed and become a martyr, and receive his 22 virgins in heaven, endless supplies of Halal meat, a brand new celestial scooter and all that.

he's planned for this for some months, so my guess the gaffe is choc full of explosives, just waiting to be detonated. he'll want to bring as many police/security officers with him as possible.

but then the authorities know all this already.

just a thought, but couldn't they contaminate the air vents with some type of fast-acting sleeping gas?

LH Pathe · 22-03-2012 2:18am

Waited all day for tonights fireworks. I bet even Al Quaida are ashamed of random nutter associating himself, at what point is he coaxed into killing himself whilst failing to take as many with him as possible. yep... he's a stubborn one

dsmythy · 22-03-2012 2:20am

Wow. People should be careful in what words they use to criticise Israel. People using strong rhetoric are indirectly responsible for these deaths...... Actually no they aren't.

Crazy nuts will always turn out to be crazy nuts. Latching onto whatever floats their boat as their excuse for acting like crazy nuts. Be it saving Europe from Islamic domination or killing Jewish children as revenge on Israel.

Jack_Russell · 22-03-2012 2:25am

dsmythy wrote: »

Wow. People should be careful in what words they use to criticise Israel. People using strong rhetoric are indirectly responsible for these deaths...... Actually no they aren't.

Crazy nuts will always turn out to be crazy nuts. Latching onto whatever floats their boat as their excuse for acting like crazy nuts. Be it saving Europe from Islamic domination or killing Jewish children as revenge on Israel.

it's all for God don't you know?

SamHarris · 22-03-2012 3:28am

dsmythy wrote: »

Wow. People should be careful in what words they use to criticise Israel. People using strong rhetoric are indirectly responsible for these deaths...... Actually no they aren't.

Crazy nuts will always turn out to be crazy nuts. Latching onto whatever floats their boat as their excuse for acting like crazy nuts. Be it saving Europe from Islamic domination or killing Jewish children as revenge on Israel.

Its "revenge" on Judaism and the Jewish race. I dont think people realise how much these people frame thier conflict in ethnic and religious tones, not national ones. All you have to do is look at what they teach in Saudi Arabian schools, or how well the protocols of the Elders of Zion sell in Middle Eastern countries, or even polls on public opinion towards Jews, to see the truth in this

Jews are almost universally reviled throughout the middle east - respondants in Yemen to a recent poll had a 99% return who viewed them "negativly". Thats not Israelis, that is Jews. http://www.pewglobal.org/2006/06/22/the-great-divide-how-westerners-and-muslims-view-each-other/

So yes people who claim it is merely a response to Israeli policies, no matter how much they then deride the attacks, are not only ignoring the fact that Arab goverment policies towards arabs and Palestinians specifcaly are often far more brutal and inhumane, they are tangentally making excuses for the persons behaviour. Ie, implying that if the Israelis would just leave everyone alone known of these groups / attacks would happen. I would recommend people actually look up what motivates these people and what their stated goals often are - I have news for them - its not often the establishment of a fair and democratic Palestinain state alongside a Jewish one that they want.

SamHarris · 22-03-2012 3:48am

Toby Take a Bow wrote: »

I never said it wasn't intolerant. But I'd love to know why BlaasForRafa thinks it's the most intolerant, preferably with examples.

The most intolerant major religion, and with a nod to its massive diversity may be more apt. Its also worth pointing out that by far the most to suffer from this intolerance in some Islamic sects are the more tolerant Islamic sects (the obvious being the Suffi's in Pakistan).

But before some actual figures, anecdotal evidence may just be anecdotal but to ignore the fact that 100's of people are targeted each year explicitly by Islamic terrorists because they do not follow islam (or again far more likely) they follow the wrong KIND of Islam cannot be disregarded. It is near daily. That you probably cannot point to one similiar attack by radical Christian group in the last 10 years may be the act of an enormous propoganda machine/ cognitive disonance but really should play into how you form an opinion about a given group.

A recent poll on British Muslims found, for example that

– 33% claim that killing is justified if done to protect religion.
– 40 percent support the introduction of sharia for British Muslims.
– 33 percent support a worldwide Islamic caliphate based on sharia.
-36 percent of young British Muslims think apostates should be killed.
-13 percent of young British Muslims said they “admired” Al Qaeda.
16 percent of British Muslims support suicide bombing in Israel.
-7 percent of British Muslims support suicide bombing in Britain.
-33% of Muslims want Sharia Law as implemented in Saudi Arabia.
-28% of muslims agreed they dreamt of Britain becoming an Islamic State.
-78% wanted Danish cartoonist prosecuted.
-68% want prosecutions for insulting Islam.
-62% disagree with the freedom of speech if it insults religious sensibilities.
-50% said British people who insult Islam should be arrested and prosecuted.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1510866/Poll-reveals-40pc-of-Muslims-want-sharia-law-in-UK.html

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/08/14/opinion/main1893879.shtml&date=2011-04-06

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-432075/Multiculturalism-drives-young-Muslims-shun-British-values.html (yes the daily mail, fortuntly its the figures one should look at.)

Around 50% around the Muslim world support Hamas, whos goals are explicitly genocidal http://www.pewglobal.org/2010/12/02/muslims-around-the-world-divided-on-hamas-and-hezbollah/

None found homosexuality acceptable.

Really if your not fully aware of the well documented and well researched massive problems in Islam at this point then I really want to know where you get your news...

Clearly its not only a problem, but it is a pretty damn big one. That we are here 11 years after 9 11 still debating whether its alright to recognise Islam has specific problems is nothing short of ridiculous. But then its not surprising, the far left seek to protect anything they deem sufficiently anti american, regarldess of their own goals and ambitions, whilst even the most mainstream and powerful Muslim orientated dialogue generators ( I think of al Jazeera) still have their entire programming based around a tone of self rightousness and self pitty. That such polls can fly under the radar so easily without being massivly commented on show the extent to which a little more self criticism may be needed.

Wompa1 · 22-03-2012 5:51am

Funny Boards brings America into it and the French prosecutor did too. America just sent him back to France on the first flight apparently....

If only there was a place they could have sent him and other extremists, perhaps on an Island somewhere?

I'm not being serious with that either. I just find it pretty f'd up that people are so narky about America it get's brought up in most negative posts on here. Also that the French prosecutor deflects attention away from Frances failure to deal with this scumbag properly by tossing the blame to America. Ridiculous.

LH Pathe · 22-03-2012 6:28am

Can't wait up

what's the bets they storm his arse at dawn

/probs too dangerous. it's dawn anyhow.. This might run and run

blanchdub · 22-03-2012 8:16am

Islam is at the same period that Christianity was in the Middle age...
separation between the state and religion takes time...
@Wompa1 the terrism attack can be done by scumbag as well as successfull people in their career.
i.e. British-born Muslim doctor terrorist attack at glasgow Airport...
So it is not so easy to prevent those attacks. We live in a democracy it is not so simple to lock people without evidence.
ANy country can be the victim..including Ireland, you just need 1 fanatic. The UK understood it the hard way...after protecting Islamic extremists from Morocco and Algeria for years they changed their stance after the attacks in the UK ..
"The refusal of British authorities to extradite Ramda was a point of contention between France and the UK, with many in France and elsewhere alleging that the British government was deliberately lenient to Islamist terrorists operating outside of the UK in order to buy peace in the UK (the alleged "Londonistan" policy)"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachid_Ramda

galwayrush · 22-03-2012 8:27am

He's a murdering scumbag, but i hope he's taken alive , only so he doesn't become a martyr.

brimal · 22-03-2012 8:50am

Reports say there was two gun shots heard overnight from inside the house and the negotiators haven't heard from him since.

I don't think he's going to be found alive.

Toby Take a Bow · 22-03-2012 8:51am

SamHarris wrote: »

Thats not Israelis, that is Jews.

I'd love to know how these figures correspond with Arabic feelings in the area towards Jews before the rise of Zionism in the area. It doesn't make it okay, but to ignore the historical reason for division in the area will mean current policies will be replicated again and again.

SamHarris wrote: »

Really if your not fully aware of the well documented and well researched massive problems in Islam at this point then I really want to know where you get your news...

Oh, I'm well-aware of the problems in Islam, and I probably get my news from the same sources that you do (bar the Daily Mail), however my point was asking how Islam was the most intolerant religion. Your polls suggest a growing intolerance amongst Muslims in Britain. How does that compare to Muslims in Singapore? China (and is their 'extremism' okay because it's against a totalitarian state)? Dublin? You even mention yourself about the more 'tolerant' believers in Islam, so I guess you allow for differences within the religion, and then talk about it as if it was one huge organism.

So, extremist Islam is a problem? No argument there. I wouldn't see a huge difference between extremist Islam and some of the extremist Hassidic sects out in 'Samaria and Judea'.

SamHarris wrote: »

Clearly its not only a problem, but it is a pretty damn big one. That we are here 11 years after 9 11 still debating whether its alright to recognise Islam has specific problems is nothing short of ridiculous.

Is this a reference to my point? I hope not, as you seem to have (deliberately?) misinterpreted my point and put words into my mouth.

SamHarris wrote: »

But then its not surprising, the far left seek to protect anything they deem sufficiently anti american, regarldess of their own goals and ambitions, whilst even the most mainstream and powerful Muslim orientated dialogue generators ( I think of al Jazeera) still have their entire programming based around a tone of self rightousness and self pitty. That such polls can fly under the radar so easily without being massivly commented on show the extent to which a little more self criticism may be needed.

You could say the same about some of the shows on CNN/Fox News. People who immerse themselves in one kind of story will be quite prone to generalising. Regarding the far left, that can be a problem but often it's a deliberate misinterpretation of an attempt to look beyond black-and-white interpretations of the events.

inforfun · 22-03-2012 9:00am

Snake Plisken wrote: »

Hope the shoot that Islamist Nutter holed up in his apartment in the balls and leave him bleed out! Also I would suggest with all these various extremist groups around I'd say there is a good chance that something bad will happen this summer in London with the Olympics taking place!

The last thing they should do is kill this bastard.
Get him alive and let him rot in jail for the rest of his life.

If he is the religious (Islamic) nut people think he his he will not commit suicide in order not to miss out on his 70-something virgins.
When they kill him, nutjobs like him will declare him a martyr.

Best thing they did when Theo van Gogh was slaughtered in the streets of Amsterdam by another Islamic fanatic was to get that bastard alive.

alastair · 22-03-2012 9:15am

SamHarris wrote: »

None found homosexuality acceptable.

No-one? Not one Muslim worldwide? Not even the gay ones?

SamHarris wrote: »

Around 50% around the Muslim world support Hamas.

They do? Because the link you provided says something quite different.

You wouldn't be peddling propaganda by any chance?

Shootings In France

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