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Cork Tunnel Chaos

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  • 01-10-2003 10:05pm
    #1
    De Rebel
    Registered Users Posts: 1,109 ✭✭✭


    Today’s Irish Examiner (Note 1) carried an article on the front page about congestion at Cork’s Lee Tunnel (aka the jack lynch tunnel). Apparently, 4 years after opening the tunnel it is carrying twice its design capacity. Think about that, twice its design capacity. Not twice the load it carried on day one, but twice its design capacity. So the incompetent fùckwits, who spent 10 years doing studies and more studies and studies of the studies and reports on the studies and studies of the reports managed to get the capacity wrong by several orders of magnitude (Note 2). Of course the nub of the problem isn’t the tunnel itself, but the shagging roundabout they plonked 50 metres from the tunnel exit. The self same roundabout that is the junction of Cork’s major national primary roads (the N8 Cork-Dublin and the N25 Cork-Waterford-Rosslare, as well as soaking up traffic from the N28 and sundry other routes). So we are now at 50,000 vehicles a day. Tunnel management report that once the volume surpassed 3,000 vehicles per hour chaos set in; the roundabout is simply incapable of handling the flows. And the thick brown slimy stuff didn’t hit the oscillating portable air conditioning unit yet – wait until the Ballincollig bypass opens and funnels another 10-15,000 vehicles per day into the mess.

    But never fear, da.na.na.na.da.na.na.na…… CCC together with the NRA have a plan. They are going to solve the entire problem for the amazing bargain basement sum of €2M. The secret of their success? Fùcking traffic lights. Oh, and a couple of slip roads on the least busy quartiles of the junction, and an extra lane in the middle…. which no doubt will be slightly incomplete and give Cork another “magic roundabout”.

    The magnitude of the problem here is similar to the mad cow. The cost of solving it is in the long run going to be similar – it needs a full clover leaf junction. Is there any chance that the incompetents who have the power would put their past mistakes behind them and face up to that reality? Like NOW?

    Could somebody organise a 1 day seminar on “the downside of roundabouts and traffic lights as a solution to junctions that cater for flows greater than 50,000 vehicle movements per day” for the NRA and the morons who populate the roads departments of this country’s county councils. If said seminar was to be held in Bali, with one day’s seminaring and six days cultural exchange (removing the rugs and toasting the pale white beer guts) then a full house attendance from Ireland would be assured.

    Is there any limit to this nation’s inability to manage infrastructure? Oh would that Michael Conlon was 30 years younger and could be whisked from BGE to manage the morass that is the NRA, the NDP , the RPA and all the other limited vision outfits that are wasting our money.


    Note 1: Unfortunately not on the online edition.

    Note 2: One could conservatively assume the working life of a road tunnel to be somewhere around 100 years, for design purposes. Given the immense cost in terms of money and disruption of rectifying any design flaws it is imperative not to under estimate the capacity requirements. And given this nation's amazing and unenviable record in depopulation the rural areas and growing its towns it is reasonable to assume that this trend will continue and that urban traffic will continue to increase. How then, can paid professionals be so so wrong that they design a tunnel to cater for 100 years traffic growth and see it reach double its design capacity in 4 years.
    Tagged:


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    #2
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,243 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    A full cloverleaf isn't necessary. Free-flow lanes will make a big difference (meaning left turning traffic completely avoids the roundabout). The most cost efficient change after that would be a bridge over the existing roundabout allowing traffic from Dublin avoid the roundabout and go straight to the Dunkettle roundabout (have they done anything with that?).

    Clover leafs are also out dated as they mix accelerating and decelerating traffic. You need a 6/8 cloverleaf that has 2 extra bridges.

    The Bandon Road Roundabout in Bishopstown is getting a similar treatment.

    There are also plans for a "proper" North Ring Road

    PS and reopen Middleton train station.


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    #3
    mike65
    Closed Accounts Posts: 88,978 ✭✭✭✭mike65


    What Cork really needs is a by-pass ;) Between Cobh and Kinsale :ninja:

    Mike.


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    #4
    De Rebel
    Registered Users Posts: 1,109 ✭✭✭De Rebel


    The free flow lanes (slip lanes I think they are called in the report) won't make a big impact. One of them is proposed for ex-city traffic heading for Dublin - that is not the cause of the bottle neck and that traffic already has an escape route via Glanmire (exiting at the Dunkettle roundabout).

    Its right turning traffic/straight through traffic that is the cause of most of the problems, that and the fact that the roundabout is too small/traffic moves too fast to allow useful gaps.

    Neither the best will in the world not all the messing around with traffic lights will solve this - the present junction is simply incapable of handling the volumes.

    regarding "The Bandon Road Roundabout in Bishopstown is getting a similar treatment" is isn't. That junction isn't getting any treatment. That Ballincollig bypass is due to open with that junction remaining in its current state. (And wait till you see the horrors that that is going to inflict - tailbacks halfway to halfway) There is an early stage proposal to construct grade seperated junctions with slip roads at both the Sarsfield's road and Bandon road junctions. Given the current status of those proposals, and judging by the delays in advancing similar proposals for the magic roundabout, it is likely to be 2009 at the earliest before we see either the Sarsfield's road or the Bandon road junctions being sorted out.

    And I have no problems at all with the notion of reopening the Middleton railway. Again, we are going to see this one debated as nauseum, and the 4 thousand houses built and lived in in Carrigtoohil before the first sleeper hits the grit. Instead of just doing it.


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    #5
    De Rebel
    Registered Users Posts: 1,109 ✭✭✭De Rebel


    Originally posted by mike65
    What Cork really needs is a by-pass ;) Between Cobh and Kinsale :ninja:

    Mike.

    Its called de ferry ww)


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    #6
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,695 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    What you guys need is a toll bridge..
    Cost €30m - (well actually it will cost 30m PER YEAR in tolls)
    but hey when if becomes bottlenecked you can just build a new one years after it's needed...
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=114332


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    #7
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,243 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Originally posted by Capt'n Midnight
    What you guys need is a toll bridge..
    there the slight matter of half the port (bulk, container and some refined fuels) being up stream of the tunnel. The brdige would need to be **vast**


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    #8
    dmeehan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,455 ✭✭✭dmeehan


    Originally posted by Victor
    there the slight matter of half the port (bulk, container and some refined fuels) being up stream of the tunnel. The brdige would need to be **vast**
    which is why they opted for the tunnel



    regarding "The Bandon Road Roundabout in Bishopstown is getting a similar treatment" is isn't. That junction isn't getting any treatment.
    have a look at http://www.corkcoco.com/cccmm/services/roads/N25/N25SOUTH.PDF
    (its a pdf so you will need acrobat or reader to view it)
    but this creates another problem:
    there will be nothing to obstruct traffic all the way from macroom through the ballincollig by-pass passed the new flyovers at bandon rd/sarsfield rd/kinsale rd roundabouts straight through to the feckin roundabout at the end of the tunnel

    they better come up with a better solution than trafic lights!!:rolleyes:


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    #9
    Aindriu
    Closed Accounts Posts: 44 ✭Aindriu


    has anyone come to the conclusion that roads just lead to more traffic . build rail and lots of it, QBC's and maybe a light tram system for Cork.


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    #10
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,243 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    rail / tram has limited capability in Cork because of low densities, but QBCs and bus interchanges have huge potential - all they need to do is straighten the roads so they aren't 2 lane then 3 lane then one lane then 2 lane then 3 lane ....


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    #11
    embraer170
    Registered Users Posts: 2,420 ✭✭✭embraer170


    Has anyone seen the plans for the N22, from Ballincollig (where the new ring road will end) to Ballymakeera. Motorway to Macroom and new single carriageway from there to Ballymakeera.

    I accept that that Macroom needs a ring road and that the road to Ballymakeera is in bad need of improvement, but building a brand new road all the way, that's a bloody joke.


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    #12
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,243 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Originally posted by embraer170
    I accept that that Macroom needs a ring road and that the road to Ballymakeera is in bad need of improvement, but building a brand new road all the way, that's a bloody joke.
    But it puts money in politic^H^H^H^H^H builder's pockets.


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    #13
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,243 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    What stage is the planning of the South Ring Road Improvements at?


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    #14
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,695 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Sorry for being so cynical - but would you rather have the M50 and the toll brigde ? - you don't know lucky you are...


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    #15
    De Rebel
    Registered Users Posts: 1,109 ✭✭✭De Rebel


    Originally posted by dmeehan
    have a look at http://www.corkcoco.com/cccmm/services/roads/N25/N25SOUTH.PDF
    I did look at that, a year ago, and have the download to prove it. And it hasn't changed one iota in the meantime. Which is why I said in my first response "regarding 'The Bandon Road Roundabout in Bishopstown is getting a similar treatment' is isn't". That roundabout is currently getting no treatment whatsoever, and based on the progress in relation to the plans for the Kinsale Road Roundabout, I stand by my estimate "it is likely to be 2009 at the earliest before we see either the Sarsfield's road or the Bandon road junctions being sorted out"
    Originally posted by dmeehan
    but this creates another problem:
    there will be nothing to obstruct traffic all the way from macroom through the ballincollig by-pass passed the new flyovers at bandon rd/sarsfield rd/kinsale rd roundabouts straight through to the feckin roundabout at the end of the tunnel[/B]
    Again read what I said in my original post "wait until the Ballincollig bypass opens and funnels another 10-15,000 vehicles per day into the mess."


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    #16
    De Rebel
    Registered Users Posts: 1,109 ✭✭✭De Rebel


    Originally posted by Victor
    What stage is the planning of the South Ring Road Improvements at?

    Ok, you did ask. It doesn't make for pretty reading: Starting from the West………..

    The final extension, known as "The Ballincollig Bypass" is under construction. It will extend the Southern Ring Road from its current endpoint at the Bandon Road Roundabout to a point just beyond the EMC site on the Macroom road. The big problem is that that starting point of this extension at the Bandon Road Roundabout is not being improved as part of this scheme. So we will see a huge increase in the traffic at this already busy junction, where the N22/N25 will now cross the N71. Remember that a large retail outlet (Dunnes Stores) already disgorges its traffic directly onto this roundabout. This Dunnes branch is the closest to Ballincollig and all points West and will itself attract substantial traffic once the bypass opens.

    The grade separation of the Sarsfield Road and Bandon Road roundabouts (planned as a single project because of their close proximity) is in glossy brochure format, probably about 6 years away from reality. Meanwhile the huge extension to the adjacent Wilton Shopping Centre (which involves doubling the size of the centre and doubling the size of the Tesco anchor store) is about 6 weeks from completion.

    The grade separation of the Kinsale Road roundabout (aka magic roundabout because of the way the road markings cause lanes to disappear and cars to plow into each other) is planned, approved, and EISed. All done, just awaiting funding. And waiting. And waiting. And waiting. Just like the queues of traffic every day. Probably about 3 years away from reality. The adjacent 900 car park and ride, which is on the bottlenecked side of the roundabout, will be open within the next 3 months, adding considerably to the chaos that is the Kinsale Road roundabout.

    There are no further improvements planned to the N25 junctions at Douglas, despite the recent grant of planning approval to the Douglas Village Shopping Centre, which involves redevelopment of its significant retail space and a three story car park. If, as is suspected, Tesco pull out of this centre and the replacement is either of the front runners (Superquinn or M&S) expect this to act as another traffic magnet.

    The enhancements to the N25 at the Mahon Interchange are proceeding at breakneck speed (mainly, one suspects, because they are privately funded, and perhaps even managed, by the developers of Mahon Point and Jacobs Island). These enhancements see a 2km stretch of the N25 increased to 3 lane operation, the Mahon interchange slip roads increased to 2 lanes, and the overbridge doubled up from two single lanes to dual lanes. Mahon Point, which will open in 18 months, will be the third largest "congregation point for morons with nothing to do of a sunday" (aka shopping mall) in the country. Conservatively 80% of the traffic it generates will arrive/depart via the N25. That junction is less than 2 miles from the tunnel. The centre has a target radius of over 60 miles (thereby attracting traffic from Limerick and Waterford cities, as well as the remote wilderness that is Tipperary)

    The planned "improvements" to the roundabout at the junction of the N25/N8 (which is where this thread started) which consist of sticking traffic lights on the junction have appeared on The Irish Examiner. So far as I know, no public consultation is necessary. So we can expect the county council to turn up about the second week in December to block off one side of the tunnel and one lane of the roundabout and start digging holes to plant the bloody lights and taking months to complete the job.

    To summarise the above, a number of very significant developments close to fruition in very close proximity to the N25, each of which will generate substantial additional traffic in the short term, with the necessary traffic improvements either awaiting planning/approval/funding or, in the case of t a real solution for N25/N8 junction, not even at the stage of being a glimmer in the planner's eyes.

    Thers is chaos ahead. many years of it.
    Originally posted by Capt'n Midnight
    Sorry for being so cynical - but would you rather have the M50 and the toll bridge ? - you don't know lucky you are...
    I’m not sure that its any different. Certainly, in another 6 months, the chaos in Cork will be every bit as bad as the M50 horror spots.


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    #17
    dmeehan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,455 ✭✭✭dmeehan


    I’m not sure that its any different. Certainly, in another 6 months, the chaos in Cork will be every bit as bad as the M50 horror spots.
    yeah, and there's no hope of a €700 million relief package either


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    #18
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,243 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Originally posted by De Rebel
    Again read what I said in my original post "wait until the Ballincollig bypass opens and funnels another 10-15,000 vehicles per day into the mess."
    Not quite - as a lot of traffic from Ballincollig and beyond would have joined at Sarsfield Road anyway to head to Airport / Dublin.
    Originally posted by De Rebel
    Remember that a large retail outlet (Dunnes Stores) already disgorges its traffic directly onto this roundabout. This Dunnes branch is the closest to Ballincollig and all points West and will itself attract substantial traffic once the bypass opens.
    They seem to be taking Dunnes off the main roundabout.
    Originally posted by De Rebel
    The grade separation of the Sarsfield Road and Bandon Road roundabouts (planned as a single project because of their close proximity) is in glossy brochure format, probably about 6 years away from reality.
    This seems strange that they are raising the ring road and not the roundabouts, at least it would give people on Sarsfield Road a break from the steep hill. And the ground around there is dodgy anyway (they had to remove 9 metres of peat when building the Sarsfield Road - Bandon Road section - and now the want to add extra weight?)
    Originally posted by De Rebel
    The grade separation of the Kinsale Road roundabout (aka magic roundabout because of the way the road markings cause lanes to disappear and cars to plow into each other) is planned, approved, and EISed. All done, just awaiting funding.
    And to think 17 years ago as a 14 year old, I told them not to use a roundabout :rolleyes: Is it going to be 2 or 3 level?
    Originally posted by De Rebel
    The planned "improvements" to the roundabout at the junction of the N25/N8 (which is where this thread started) which consist of sticking traffic lights on the junction have appeared on The Irish Examiner.
    It looks like they made a mistake there. The N8 Glanmire Bypass should not have had the roundabout and should have one straight down the tunnel. The N25 Middleton Road should have had the roundabout and they could have then “overflown” (admittedly at great height) the roundabout with a bridge, as traffic required it. (The reason they did it the way it is originally was the Middleton Road had more traffic).

    Oh and the Dunkettle roundabout and the Skew Bridge in Tivoli?


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    #19
    Synkronite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 219 ✭✭Synkronite


    Kinsale roundabout has to be the biggest roundabout disaster in the world. Four sets of traffic lights...


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    #20
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,243 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Originally posted by Synkronite
    Kinsale roundabout has to be the biggest roundabout disaster in the world. Four sets of traffic lights...
    Red Cow - eight sets of lights, with Luas to add two more ....


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    #21
    MadsL
    Registered Users Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    Nah - it is isn't the quantity it is the stupidity. N3 dual-carriageway roundabout just before the M50

    4 sets of lights, 5 entrances to the roundabout. WTF!!!!

    Traffic Dublin-bound entering the roundabout at often 30-50 mph meets on the blindside the traffic that enters the roundabout without the control of a set of lights and queues (parks) at the red light on the opposite (blind) side of the roundabout.

    Even going through the green light at 20 mph I've had to slam the brakes on here a few times. Lethal.


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    #22
    dmeehan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,455 ✭✭✭dmeehan


    has anyone else heard this rumour:
    the lee tunnel will have to be closed for a major retro-fit as it is sinking! this is caused by the unprecedented level of traffic volume that is too heavy for the silt-like soil.

    apparently the tunnel will close as soon as the cork main drainage works are completed


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    #23
    Floater
    Closed Accounts Posts: 252 ✭✭Floater


    Originally posted by dmeehan
    has anyone else heard this rumour:
    the lee tunnel will have to be closed for a major retro-fit as it is sinking! this is caused by the unprecedented level of traffic volume that is too heavy for the silt-like soil.

    apparently the tunnel will close as soon as the cork main drainage works are completed

    IF it is true they’d better get the north ring road completed pronto – ie before closing the tunnel!

    If the North Ring continued further East from the N8 to connect directly with the N25 at a point further back from the tunnel mouth it would take a lot of weight off the gyratory system at the mouth of the tunnel.

    The alternative is to throw an extra 50,000 vehicles a day into / via the city centre!

    Floater


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    #24
    shoegirl
    Registered Users Posts: 2,018 ✭✭✭shoegirl


    The main problem with the tunnel is that no alternatives have been made for commuting from the south to north (mostly towards the Little Island industrial area) except for car travel. I work in Little Island and nobody living south of the Lee can use public transport to come here because there is a) no direct link and b) the southside buses don't meet up with the railway station. That doesn't even take into account the sorry, pathetic railway "service" which is contemptuously spat at users from Cork to Cobh.

    I notice an exceptionally heavy dependency on cars in Cork, despite a modestly reasonable bus service from most towns into the city. There seems to be a particular problem around industrial areas as the transport just doesn't go there, forcing more and more workers into cars.

    There are two solutions:

    a) direct transport links from all towns from Blackrock to Wilton towards Little Island and a direct link from north city to Ringaskiddy.

    b) direct infrasstructure taxation - force developers in these areas to subsidise transport (by lump sum or for a fixed term) or refuse planning permission. Tax employee car parks heavily to force companies to create transport schemes (and give them tax breaks for doing so)


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    #25
    Floater
    Closed Accounts Posts: 252 ✭✭Floater


    Originally posted by shoegirl
    The main problem with the tunnel is that no alternatives have been made for commuting from the south to north
    The “missing link” is integration.

    There is a large flow of buses into the city centre. If the bus station was integrated with the rail station, arriving bus users could connect with suburban and inter-city trains and people arriving on trains could connect with buses.

    Most city buses don’t use the bus station. Their routes should be modified where possible to loop near the bus/rail travel centre so as to make a “wet day interchange” comfortable. Where this isn’t possible one or more frequently serviced bus routes could be used to act as a shuttle. Nothing less is acceptable surely?

    Cork suburban rail services are indeed pathetic. Reports (such as http://www.irishrail.ie/images/upload/news/75.pdf) gather dust but no action. An integrated approach to suburban rail – including Mallow and Midleton suburban would make the entire system usable and viable. A virtuous circle. And the city needs integrated ticketing where any ticket you buy for a given journey allows one to use all modes of transport and connect from one mode to another without having to do anything.

    Why should we even be discussing such basic issues in 2003? If those responsible were doing their job in a professional manner it would be done already.

    Floater


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    #26
    De Rebel
    Registered Users Posts: 1,109 ✭✭✭De Rebel


    Originally posted by dmeehan
    has anyone else heard this rumour:
    the lee tunnel will have to be closed for a major retro-fit as it is sinking! this is caused by the unprecedented level of traffic volume that is too heavy for the silt-like soil.

    apparently the tunnel will close as soon as the cork main drainage works are completed

    Thats been doing the rounds for the last 3 months. Sounds like an urban myth. If it were true they would surely close one of the tunnels at a time. Which would be bad, but not the disaster that closing both would be.


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    #27
    dmeehan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,455 ✭✭✭dmeehan


    Originally posted by De Rebel
    Thats been doing the rounds for the last 3 months. Sounds like an urban myth. If it were true they would surely close one of the tunnels at a time. Which would be bad, but not the disaster that closing both would be.
    true, never thought of it like that


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    #28
    dudara
    Registered Users Posts: 33,519 ✭✭✭✭dudara


    One of the previous posters made a point that I've been saying for years. None of the buses in Cork link to the train station. Even in Ireland, land of the incompetents, this is spectacular idiocracy.

    And the Kinsale roundabout is just downright scary. I've been on the red cow roundabout and despite the fact that it is bigger, Kinsale just has that scare factor. People cutting across lanes at random trying to beat the idiotic traffic lights. If you're coming from the airport, you don't have any traffic lights, so that can be fun trying to get out.

    Cork isn't bad yet though, not when compared to Dublin. Let's hope that the NRA might learn some lessons and actually plan ahead for cork (fat chance though).,


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    #29
    Floater
    Closed Accounts Posts: 252 ✭✭Floater


    Originally posted by dudara

    And the Kinsale roundabout is just downright scary. I've been on the red cow roundabout and despite the fact that it is bigger, Kinsale just has that scare factor. People cutting across lanes at random trying to beat the idiotic traffic lights. If you're coming from the airport, you don't have any traffic lights, so that can be fun trying to get out.
    The Kinsale Road roundabout handles 90,000 vehicles on a busy day. AFAIK Red Cow is about 40-50,000 per day. Kinsale Road should have received the same treatment as the Bloomfield interchange down the road (N25 x N28). Nobody ever talks about Bloomfield because it works.

    There are too many inlets and outlets on the Kinsale Road roundabout and no grade separation. At the very minimum an N25 overpass is required here (and at downstream roundabouts).

    Floater


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