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Second leisure battery

  • 09-09-2014 1:01pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 609 ✭✭✭


    We've been doing a bit of off-site camping lately, and for the first time last week, the leisure battery wasn't enough for two days. (240 volt inverter for the TV did it!)
    So, having looked into various options, I plan to fit a second battery to give us a little more time between charging.
    I've been told that an ordinary 110amp battery will do just as well as the more expensive 'proper' leisure batteries....yes or no?
    Now I'm reading that the second battery HAS to be identical to the original, i.e; both batteries must be the same age, type and manufacturer. I find this a little odd.....my present battery is five years old and in great condition, it holds at 12.75v off-duty and has never caused any problem.
    Wouldn't it be OK to fit a 110amp new (tractor) battery in parallel? Or would the world end?


Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,035 ✭✭✭niloc1951


    It's all to do with the internal resistance of a battery and ohm's law and I know nothing about either :D

    However, I do know from research that it is important that when there is more than one battery that all are absolutely equal. This means that they must be equal in internal resistance, which changes with age so the must have had the same use, and equal in type,not necessarily in brand.

    If they are not equal then the loading and charging will not be equally shared resulting in the premature death of one or other of them.

    One thing to bear in mind when more than one battery is installed is that cable to each should be of the same size and length from the charger/distribution unit, this is again to ensure that both get hit with the same draw and charge, back to ohm's law and resistance again ;)


  • Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    The link leads between the batteries need to be the same length and gauge. The main neg. and pos. taken from diagonal opposite terminals of opposite batteries to the charger/load don't have to be the same length. The resistance will balance as it becomes just one battery with a series internal resistance for intents and purposes.

    If you have a fully functional starter battery for a house battery after 5 years I'd say work away with the tractor battery you won't see the use to have huge implications, that or your meter is seriously out of calibration.
    I'd discharge test the old one to learn it's true capacity and then get one to match. (aim for 50% discharge in 10 hours with a fixed load like a bulb...let the battery rest 24hours if it's sitting about 12.2v or 12.1v note your capacity (discharged amps) double it and buy a second one with this many Ah). If it sits higher discharge for another hour and then wait another 24.

    There's no danger of the world ending, starters just don't like deep discharging and therefore won't last as long as a semi-traction...that is all. They've thinner plates that get corroded faster. Tractor batteries are fine for light occasional use. Plus they're so cheap you could just keep replacing them and still come close to a comparative price per watt.
    The reason batteries are best kept same age, make and capacity is to prevent one discharging into it's partner. 1 weak battery in a bank of two = two x weakest battery.

    Battery bank balancing.


  • Registered Users Posts: 609 ✭✭✭tony glenn


    Excellent response! At last, a method of checking my current (excuse the pun) battery that I can understand! Thanks for this informative reply, I'll start this 'test' today and all being weel, head down the tractor battery route.
    I was just about to give up in confusion and start looking at solar panels....once again, Sir Liamalot rides to the rescue (Once again? If I recall, you prompted me to claim for my smashed back window on my windscreen cover earlier this year!)
    Thanks again, I may need to get back to you for further advice. Stay right there!


  • Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    110ah / C20 rate = 5.5Ah discharge for the rated curve.
    12.4V x 5.5A = 68.5W

    So hot-wire the high beam of a headlamp to the battery and let it run 10 hours (60W / 55W...H4 type, 70W would be better because they're not efficient...you're only wiring the larger filament...you'll have two pos. and one neg. just use the blinding pair).

    Use some decent cable too, min. diameter 1.5mm or ya might melt it.

    Best check it periodically. I'd stop the discharge if you see 11.8v and let it recuperate a few hours. Chances are it's not a 110Ah battery anymore.


  • Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    Oh and make sure it's fully charged to 14.7V before you start the test.
    I'd remove it from the camper too in case there's any ghost-loads going to interfere with your results.


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  • Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    This isn't a perfect solution by the way. The old battery will have a higher internal resistance due to residual hard sulphates but it'll get you pretty close to where you want to be I reckon.
    I'd look at solar after 4 days run-time.
    Two days sounds a little low for 110Ah, you could possibly double your run-time without the inverter and a 12v tv. But then again another battery is probably cheaper.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,638 ✭✭✭moodrater


    I'd look at solar after 4 days run-time.
    Two days sounds a little low for 110Ah, you could possibly double your run-time without the inverter and a 12v tv. But then again another battery is probably cheaper.
    Could be a CRT telly the father in law still runs one lol


  • Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    It's like them old tungstens inefficient in terms of light per watt but much more respectable if you consider them a light and heat source. :pac:
    I bet a CRT would keep a camper right toasty. ;)


  • Registered Users Posts: 609 ✭✭✭tony glenn


    Shock horror! What did I do wrong? I took the leisure battery off to check the levels (impossible in situ)...it was happily sitting there reading 12.65v. I took off the caps and saw that the tops of all the plates were showing. So I carefully topped up the levels with distilled water, and connected the charger to be sure, to be sure. The green full-charge light came on within ten minutes, so I disconnected and checked the voltage....13.5v, which it always is after charging, before settling down to 12.65v.
    Went to the shed this morning, the battery was reading 10.6v.!!! Left it on charge all day, 5 cells bubbling away happily, one cell flat and lifeless.
    So how did that happen? How could it have been OK prior to topping up the levels, and then duff the next morning? Herself is convinced it's my fault......
    Finally, can it be fixed, or is it time to say goodbye? (It was fitted in 2009 btw)


  • Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    You shouldn't water a battery before you charge it, the electrolyte expands when charged and you can get a spillage. In your case you did the right thing and got the level above the plates but that is as far as you ought to go until it's charged then top it off.
    Damage was done before you watered it. The plates are oxidised. It's irreparable you could try filling it with caustics but I wouldn't bother. Scrap lead, 50c per kilo.
    There's a possibility the lower electrolyte level was more concentrated so worked better for the reduced capacity you had.
    [Edit]: Stratification is another possibility, it's an unequal distribution of acid concentration, this raises the open circuit voltage but causes increased corrosion and sulphation in the lower end of the battery and overall reduced capacity. This happens when the electrolyte doesn't get mixed often by driving, charge cycling, equalising etc.

    You can try equalising it and see if it recovers but I'd say it's a ~60Ah battery now if you get all 6 cells working.
    Bubbling below 14.2v means dead cells or soon to be.

    You can check the cell voltage with long nails between cells, just stick them on top of the plates and meter them, use the neg. post with the first cell to get that one if you want to compare the voltages (be aware this will contaminate your electrolyte).
    Or you could use a hydrometer to check the electrolyte density and work from there.
    Either way it's just going to tell you what you already know I'm afraid...new battery time.
    5 years is impressive for a starter come leisure battery.


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  • Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    If you haven't got a charger with an equalise function and you probably need 3 cycles by now you could get a constant voltage source and give it 15.5V @ ~7 amps for 5 hours and a few things might happen:

    Battery recovers (soft sulphates are recombined).
    Battery dies completely (plates buckle, grids corrode).
    Battery explodes (cell dies causing over-voltage in the remainders, best done in a well ventilated space (hydrogen) and if it starts to smell like a rotten egg cease and desist and call it a day).


  • Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    On the bright side if you follow the original plan to get a new battery you might find that a genuine 110Ah meets you requirements for the duration and remember to check the water levels more often. ;)


  • Registered Users Posts: 609 ✭✭✭tony glenn


    OK, so I'll take the problem battery to the local autoparts shop today, they've offered to test it for me. Assuming it's duff, I'll then buy the 110amp 'tractor' battery and follow your final suggestion...try that for a two-day off-site trip and see if it holds up. If so, job done. The question then is, if it doesn't hold up, will I have done damage by running it until flat? And furthermore, would it make more sense to look to the future anddouble up now, as both batteries will be 'identical' from day one?
    BTW, thanks for your continued input and advice. If you have any questions about 5-string banjos, feel free to ask!


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,741 ✭✭✭Irishgoatman


    tony glenn wrote: »
    OK, so I'll take the problem battery to the local autoparts shop today, they've offered to test it for me. Assuming it's duff, I'll then buy the 110amp 'tractor' battery and follow your final suggestion...try that for a two-day off-site trip and see if it holds up. If so, job done. The question then is, if it doesn't hold up, will I have done damage by running it until flat? And furthermore, would it make more sense to look to the future anddouble up now, as both batteries will be 'identical' from day one?
    BTW, thanks for your continued input and advice. If you have any questions about 5-string banjos, feel free to ask!

    Hi Tony, with regard to your last sentence, is it true that frets on a banjo were originally designed as speed bumps to slow the player down in order to allow other musicians to join in?;)


  • Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    No worries.

    Was the original 110Ah battery you have a tractor battery? I just assumed it is when you said you were planning to get another.

    You will damage any battery if you run it until flat
    .
    Inverter alarms are set too low (10.5v) and encourage this sortov behavior.

    STD_cycle_life.jpg

    According to manufacturers a starter should only be discharged to ~80% capacity.
    Semi-traction: 50%
    Traction: 20%
    Anything more than this and you are taking hundreds of cycles off it's lifespan.
    That said most people who want their batteries for 5+ years keep then in the top >80% charged.

    Correct maintenance of an open lead acid requires:
    A 14.7v temperature compensating charger.
    Hydrometer testing every month and equalisation after a drift of 0.015 specific gravity between cells.
    Water service every month or when needed.
    Cleaning of battery top from condensed electrolyte every 3-ish months with hot water, baking soda and soap.
    Float charging in the down time.

    If 110Ah isn't enough you can double up after the first trial. One cycle (to 50%) won't make a hell of a lot of difference.
    New batteries are usually 80% capacity until charge cycles 50 > 200 by the way as they need to be broken in (happens naturally nothing to worry about).

    If you are cycling the battery more than 40 times a year I'd go for semi-traction.


  • Registered Users Posts: 609 ✭✭✭tony glenn


    LOL !!! That's a good one.
    It reminds me of the banjo band that were surprised by the success of a Christmas gig they played. The landlord came up at the end of the night and said "That was great lads, can you play again next Christmas?"
    They had a quick chat between themselves and then replied....
    "We'd love to play here next Christmas! Can we leave our gear here?"


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,741 ✭✭✭Irishgoatman


    tony glenn wrote: »
    LOL !!! That's a good one.
    It reminds me of the banjo band that were surprised by the success of a Christmas gig they played. The landlord came up at the end of the night and said "That was great lads, can you play again next Christmas?"
    They had a quick chat between themselves and then replied....
    "We'd love to play here next Christmas! Can we leave our gear here?"

    Very good. I know that feeling.

    I play a 12 string guitar, the strings are very close together which explains why I never seem to hit the correct string at the correct time!.:mad:.

    (PM on it's way to you).


  • Registered Users Posts: 609 ✭✭✭tony glenn


    No worries.

    Was the original 110Ah battery you have a tractor battery? I just assumed it is when you said you were planning to get another.

    You will damage any battery if you run it until flat
    .
    Inverter alarms are set too low (10.5v) and encourage this sortov behavior.

    STD_cycle_life.jpg

    According to manufacturers a starter should only be discharged to ~80% capacity.
    Semi-traction: 50%
    Traction: 20%
    Anything more than this and you are taking hundreds of cycles off it's lifespan.
    That said most people who want their batteries for 5+ years keep then in the top >80% charged.

    Correct maintenance of an open lead acid requires:
    A 14.7v temperature compensating charger.
    Hydrometer testing every month and equalisation after a drift of 0.015 specific gravity between cells.
    Water service every month or when needed.
    Cleaning of battery top from condensed electrolyte every 3-ish months with hot water, baking soda and soap.
    Float charging in the down time.

    If 110Ah isn't enough you can double up after the first trial. One cycle (to 50%) won't make a hell of a lot of difference.
    New batteries are usually 80% capacity until charge cycles 50 > 200 by the way as they need to be broken in (happens naturally nothing to worry about).

    If you are cycling the battery more than 40 times a year I'd go for semi-traction.

    Two new 110amp 'tractor' batteries now purchased, plus cables and connectors. I'll fit them next week (including a new battery box set-up in the locker for the extra one) and see how things work out. Thanks again to all for the much-appreciated advice and assistance.


  • Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    Shucks...you went for the two. If I knew you wanted 220Ah I woulda said get two industrial semi-traction 6v's in series, there's nothing in the difference (on Tayna Battery anyways ...not including shipping).


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