Free fees

Diarmsquid · 01-11-2010 2:26am #1

So at the moment, most of us don't pay a tuition fee, but pay a registration fee. Years ago this fee was so small it was negligible and we effectively had "free fees". Over time this fee has gone up and up, it was €900 in my first year, €1500 now and according to rumours, is set to rise to €3000 in the next budget.

Am I right so far?

Right, we still don't pay a tuition fee, but we don't have free third level education anymore. We may have cheap third level education compared to other countries, but certainly not free. This registration fee is enough to put some poorer families off the idea of third level education, and a hike will leave more people behind.

Yes?

The country is broke and the government will have to make cuts everywhere in the next budget. Health, housing, pensions, wages, the arts, social welfare are all going to get hit. Whatever about who is to blame, the fact is that the government has to make cuts, or increase taxes to balance the budget

Okay so...

Is it reasonable to insist that third level tuition fees are paid for by the taxpayer in such a broke country? In a time when most of the graduates who benefit from this education are emigrating, would it not be better if the government focussed on getting the economy back to a stage where these people wouldn't have to leave?

Also,

Are the leaders of third level students in Ireland wise to straight out reject any form of hike cost to students? Would they not be better to work with the government to figure out a better way of funding education rather than a hike in the registration fee, which would only prevent poorer families from education?

Would they not be better off to accept that the government can't pay for our tuition fees anymore, and consider a form of graduate tax, in return for lower registration fees? A solution which would cut costs for the government, allow access to education for more families. A solution where a student would pay for their own education, but not while they are poor students, when they are working scientists, businessmen, lawyers... communicators?:pac:

Gman1 · 01-11-2010 2:54am

Diarmsquid wrote: »

Okay so...

Is it reasonable to insist that third level tuition fees are paid for by the taxpayer in such a broke country? In a time when most of the graduates who benefit from this education are emigrating, would it not be better if the government focussed on getting the economy back to a stage where these people wouldn't have to leave?

ok i agree with you to a point.

The government just announced the Metro North. Thats going to cost 15 million. Do we need it? at the moment I dont think we do.

That money could be spent else where.

Also, the government are considering increasing fees. What about the people who rely on grants? Will the grants also increase. No they wont. So students will have to get jobs or work more. but in this economy there are very little jobs available.

That means less people attending third level education, thus reducing the amount of companies that consider Ireland a good country for graduates.

TBH, its not student fees that should be increased. It should be the higher income earners that should be targeted by the government, they can afford it.

The government in this country love to screw the average person over. They wont target the rich, because the rich are their friends and neighbours.

I can see the fees being increased, they need to get money. So they will not listen to people protesting or marching. But that will not stop me and other from doing so.

amacachi · 01-11-2010 3:01am

Gman1 wrote: »

ok i agree with you to a point.

The government just announced the Metro North. Thats going to cost 15 million. Do we need it? at the moment I dont think we do.

That money could be spent else where.

Also, the government are considering increasing fees. What about the people who rely on grants? Will the grants also increase. No they wont. So students will have to get jobs or work more. but in this economy there are very little jobs available.

That means less people attending third level education, thus reducing the amount of companies that consider Ireland a good country for graduates.

TBH, its not student fees that should be increased. It should be the higher income earners that should be targeted by the government, they can afford it.

The government in this country love to screw the average person over. They wont target the rich, because the rich are their friends and neighbours.

I can see the fees being increased, they need to get money. So they will not listen to people protesting or marching. But that will not stop me and other from doing so.

What's Metro North going to cost? Don't listen to that troll Kevin Myers because it's not going to be more than a couple of billion, which will be paid for by private companies and recouped over 25-30 years. This of course is if it does get built soon, but it almost certainly won't because of the usual short-sightedness and NIMBYism in this country.

On the fees they should get rid of the registration fee and have everyone pay fees after graduation. Simple.

Skylinehead · 01-11-2010 3:03am

15 million? If only. Projected costs are about 2.5 billion euros, for something that's fairly unnecessary.

tomar-re · 01-11-2010 11:39am

Gman1 wrote: »

ok i agree with you to a point.
... Also, the government are considering increasing fees. What about the people who rely on grants? Will the grants also increase. No they wont. So students will have to get jobs or work more. but in this economy there are very little jobs available.

That means less people attending third level education, thus reducing the amount of companies that consider Ireland a good country for graduates.

TBH, its not student fees that should be increased. It should be the higher income earners that should be targeted by the government, they can afford it.

The government in this country love to screw the average person over. They wont target the rich, because the rich are their friends and neighbours.

I can see the fees being increased, they need to get money. So they will not listen to people protesting or marching. But that will not stop me and other from doing so.

Right it depends on how you go about introducing fees, britain has loans australia has grad tax, both have benefits and drawbacks. The british one's main drawback is that you are lumped on with a large ammount of debt, but where is the difference with saving all your life to pay for your kids to go to college and paying back a loan if they can do similar?

The grad tax and ideas of raising taxes are bad, firstly if you hit the big earners with taxation they bugger off, secondly you can't say that the money is going to education. The idea of everyone paying for education is not as egalitarian as people think since it's still the poorer people paying to subsidise those that could just about pay fees up to those that could damn well afford it. Also since ireland is a small open economy money and people leave, that means that those that get educated will leave for better jobs abroad.

If you move towards a system where those that gain the most benefit from education pay back for it then we will be better off, a fixed repayments loan with exemptions for those earning below a certain wage with tie ins to citizenship(as with US taxation) would mean that everyone can enter 3rd level, pay nothing until they earn and if they have to emigrate will still have to pay back the loan. We own banks it should be easy to do now.

phantom_lord · 01-11-2010 6:48pm

Diarmsquid wrote: »

This registration fee is enough to put some poorer families off the idea of third level education, and a hike will leave more people behind.

Poor families don't pay the registration fee.

wonderfulname · 01-11-2010 7:15pm

amacachi wrote:

On the fees they should get rid of the registration fee and have everyone pay fees after graduation. Simple.

Of all the options put forward in the past few years that is indeed the best, on the other hand if you consider the heightened earnings of graduates compared to those who never went to college it can be argued that we will pay over and above the cost of our tuition over time in higher taxes.

phantom_lord wrote:

Poor families don't pay the registration fee.

The cut off point for grants is pretty low, there's a large number of people who cannot afford reg fees but aren't eligible for them. Also eligibility is calculated on previous years earnings so for families who have taken a substantial hit to their income in the current year (as many have) there is no chance of getting one.

I have to say though the idea of paying a 3grand "registration fee" when you can pay much the same for full fees in some UK universities raises a lot of questions for me, why does our education have to cost so much? It should be possible to reduce university budgets without impacting students, they will say its impossible but I have my doubts.

KenHy · 01-11-2010 7:31pm

In the UK the total cost of university is not covered by fees, there is still a substantial contribution from the taxpayer. I'd favor a loan type system. Upfront costs are a bad idea. Students need to be realistic at this time. If the usi want to show DCU it can be of use it should enter negotiations with goverment to come up with a fair long term method of financing 3rd level education and avoid an increase (and possibly even secure a reduction) in the up front registration fee.

phantom_lord · 01-11-2010 8:40pm

wonderfulname wrote: »

The cut off point for grants is pretty low, there's a large number of people who cannot afford reg fees but aren't eligible for them.

Is there anywhere that has stats on the percentage of students that pay registration fees?

lithiumoxide · 01-11-2010 8:47pm

phantom_lord wrote: »

Is there anywhere that has stats on the percentage of students that pay registration fees?

The CSO might be your best bet.

Einstein? · 03-11-2010 2:52pm

phantom_lord wrote: »

Is there anywhere that has stats on the percentage of students that pay registration fees?

Hey you look fairly educated. Can you tell me if you are in receipt of the 100% maintenance grant, will you continue to be exempt from the raise in fees which will most likely be up to 2500, per green party say.

Or is this does this fee apply to EVERYONE??

03-11-2010 3:14pm

That depends... there might be amendments made to the grants system as well. Currently, with a 100% grant you don't have to pay reg. fees, but that may be changed.

phantom_lord · 03-11-2010 4:45pm

Einstein? wrote: »

Hey you look fairly educated. Can you tell me if you are in receipt of the 100% maintenance grant, will you continue to be exempt from the raise in fees which will most likely be up to 2500, per green party say.

Or is this does this fee apply to EVERYONE??

Certainly don't take my word as gospel and any of this might change but it's looking like a rise in registration fees. Which no one in receipt of a grant pays.

Even if someone doesn't qualify for a grant, they may fall within the income level where they are exempt from the fee.

I can't copy in the table for some reason but the thresholds are given here:

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/education/third-level-education/fees-and-supports-for-third-level-education/higher_education_grants_scheme

DONT WANT TO PAY €3000 TO COME TO DCU NEXT YEAR... NO? THEN MARCH!

I think only about half of undergrads will affected by this, so that email was a bit of a misnomer.

Tree · 03-11-2010 9:57pm

The fee increase is being touted in places as a "student contribution fee", so like the capitation fee it wouldnt be covered by the VEC/council maintenance grants

andrew163 · 04-11-2010 12:26am

I just made a post like this on someone's facebook profile.

Firstly, I have no major objection, in principle, to the idea of privately paying for college. My crazy right wing side feels very comfortable with the idea, and if it will lower public payments while increasing university funding, then brilliant.

However, I have serious objections to just lumping the money on top of the registration fee. Wringing people of the money like that up front, with no payment structures in place, will stop people from going to college. I don't think I would have gone to college, given the financial circumstances of my family when I began, if the reg fee had been in the 3000-ish euro range that people are throwing around.

I'd be absolutely in favour of some sort of other payment scheme, like a graduate tax or a well defined loan mechanism.

Why the immediate comparisons to Metro North everywhere? Did some journalist play that card again in the media? The funding mechanisms are so different nobody can even begin to compare the two. This fees thing is a badly thought out knee-jerk reaction by the government (if it turns out to be true, I haven't actually heard anything concrete from anyone), and a disgrace. The MN thing has a sound business case. For one thing, the EIB has already agreed to partly fund the rail project, and none of it will cost the country a cent for at least 5 years, whether they start building tomorrow or not. It's a PPP project, and despite what that tool Kevin Myers wants you to think, it's not going to cost the country 5 billion. Extrapolating from more recent RPA press releases, it's looking like a maximum of 2.5 billion paid over a long, long time. The wider economy will also benefit (to a tune of more then 2.5 billion), but that's an argument for the Infrastructure forum.

As for the question about our (student) leaders being wise to reject hikes - Yes and no. They're wise to reject the idea of the reg fee being loaded, but for the reasons I just posted (and in the context of the country being broke), they're absolute idiots to exclude any options that involve money going from student to university.

JohnMc1 · 09-11-2010 1:47am

Good info here. thanks. I applied for a course at DCU for next year. Hopefully I'll still be able to attend it. It hard how to prepare for it when you don't know what's going to happen.

Free fees

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