Religious Conversions

wet sand · 04-09-2014 6:43pm #1

Hi all.

I'm researching the maternal line of my family tree. I've managed to trace it back to my great-great-grandfather who was a Catholic born around 1864, but it transpires that Catholic Records stop around this time.

My great-great-grandfather's name was Robert Ely and his father's name was Henry Ely ( I have no info on him). Within a thirty kilometer radius of where he is born, there are other Ely's, notably those of Ballaghmore Castle, Co. Laois.

I think it's unusual that Robert Ely is listed as a Catholic on his marriage cert in 1893, since a lot of the Ely families in the vicinity are Church of Ireland or Anglican Church.

What I want to know is were there any events during the 19th century that encouraged Protestants to convert to Catholicism?

Any help is much appreciated.

jos28 · 04-09-2014 7:19pm

No events that I know of. It's usually just a case of a mixed marriage. I have members of my family who married the same person twice, once in each Church. Just trying to keep both sides happy I suppose.

pedroeibar1 · 04-09-2014 10:14pm

wet sand wrote: »

Hi all.

I'm researching the maternal line of my family tree. ........What I want to know is were there any events during the 19th century that encouraged Protestants to convert to Catholicism?

Yes. It's - in a word - called sex. Young Protestant lad has no single girl of his class/religion in the area so he marries a pretty Catholic girl of his class or below. Happened all the time, my family was staunchly Protestant in the late 1600's but by the mid 1800's most branches were Catholic.

Jellybaby1 · 05-09-2014 12:58am

Descriptions are interesting. I've heard of 'staunch Protestant', 'hot Republican', 'quintessentially English', but I don't think I've ever come across 'hot Protestant', 'staunch Catholic' or 'quintessentially Irish or French' Another would be 'typical American or typically French'. Sorry, I'm off topic now.

owenc · 05-09-2014 1:10am

Well that ne temera law and sometimes they were paid with land for converting.

owenc · 05-09-2014 1:11am

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Yes. It's - in a word - called sex. Young Protestant lad has no single girl of his class/religion in the area so he marries a pretty Catholic girl of his class or below. Happened all the time, my family was staunchly Protestant in the late 1600's but by the mid 1800's most branches were Catholic.

Basically every mixed marriage couple i've known has had the Protestant convert due to legislation. Its happened in everyones family tree somewhere.

I think the Ne Temera is really why.

pedroeibar1 · 05-09-2014 9:46am

owenc wrote: »

Basically every mixed marriage couple i've known has had the Protestant convert due to legislation. Its happened in everyones family tree somewhere.

I think the Ne Temera is really why.

Agreed, but the OP is talking 1880's which is years before Ne temere.

pedroeibar1 · 05-09-2014 9:51am

Jellybaby1 wrote: »

Descriptions are interesting. I've heard of 'staunch Protestant', 'hot Republican', 'quintessentially English', but I don't think I've ever come across 'hot Protestant', ..............

Hot vicar?

owenc · 05-09-2014 12:19pm

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Agreed, but the OP is talking 1880's which is years before Ne temere.

I'm sure it was probably the same.

That law doesn't exist and the Catholic church still makes Protestants convert. Although at the moment its more that the babies have to be raised Catholic.

Personally I don't see what business it is of theirs I mean that decision should be up to the parents.

wet sand · 05-09-2014 1:54pm

owenc wrote: »

Well that ne temera law and sometimes they were paid with land for converting.

Paid land?

owenc · 05-09-2014 2:20pm

Yep i've seen family trees were the man marries a catholic woman and they give him land for converting.

wet sand · 06-09-2014 7:43pm

owenc wrote: »

Yep i've seen family trees were the man marries a catholic woman and they give him land for converting.

That could explain it. I'm certain there is a link between the families. Henry and Robert seem to be recurring namez in the family and the surname is pretty rare in Ireland and shows up most in north Tipp and Laois.

I was browsing the net and came across an article about the murder of Richard Ely which was dated around 1830. The article said that the family had come over during the Cromwellian settlement and had worked for, and leased lands, from Sir Charles Coote.

wet sand · 10-09-2014 12:20pm

Thanks everyone. I found out his father was married in a Protestant Church in Maryborough, Co. Laois.

I discovered this from the following: The 1901 census gives his mother's name as 'Mary Anne' but no maiden name. His father's name on his marriage cert is Henry Ely.

I searched for a marriage between a Henry Ely and a 'Mary Anne' and I found it on family search. It is registered as a marriage between Mary Anne Connor and Henry Ely. I'm in the GRO and I got the marriage cert. I'm going to assume it's them because the marriage is 1856 and he was born around 1862/3.

Also, the same guy appears on family search receiving a Chelsea pension. Could this mean he is an ex British soldier? Perhaps Crimean war veteran?

tac foley · 10-09-2014 4:47pm

wet sand wrote: »

Also, the same guy appears on family search receiving a Chelsea pension. Could this mean he is an ex British soldier? Perhaps Crimean war veteran?

He would not have 'received' a 'Chelsea pension', he would have been either in-living or out-living Chelsea Pensioner - an ex-soldier who met the qualifying criteria to either live in the Royal Hospital at Chelsea or a nominated lodging thereof - an out-liver.

To be so, he would have had to have been a widower at the time of qualifying admission.

You can, I'm told, write to the Royal Hospital, giving details as required, and obtain the record of the ancestor Pensioner.

tac

wet sand · 11-09-2014 2:09pm

Thanks tac.

I bought the pension record from findmypast this morning. I read the record briefly and I will upload it later if the website allows me too!

Anyway, according to the pension, he was injured at the Siege of Sevastopol and discharged due to a deformed leg!

The pension says he is originally from Kyle, Queens County but if my records are correct, he settled in the vicinity of Templemore possibly because of it's proximity to Richmond Barracks/McCan Barracks for pension purposes.

tac foley · 11-09-2014 2:15pm

wet sand wrote: »

Thanks tac.

I bought the pension record from findmypast this morning. I read the record briefly and I will upload it later if the website allows me too!

Be careful about posting the record here - it IS Crown Copyright, with a codicil that it is used for personal purposes as in family record use. The organisation from which you obtained the information is an authorised agent and benefitee of this codicil or condition, but AFAIK, this site is not.

tac

Waitsian · 11-09-2014 4:28pm

wet sand wrote: »

Anyway, according to the pension, he was injured at the Siege of Sevastopol

What regiment? A great great grandfather of mine was there, 18th foot.

wet sand · 11-09-2014 4:49pm

mod9maple wrote: »

What regiment? A great great grandfather of mine was there, 18th foot.

The 55th Regiment of Foot (Westmorland). Injured at the Assault on the Quarries June 6th 1855?

Waitsian · 12-09-2014 10:25am

wet sand wrote: »

The 55th Regiment of Foot (Westmorland). Injured at the Assault on the Quarries June 6th 1855?

I wonder did their paths cross. Not necessarily of course given the sheer amount of Irish troops there but you never know, nice to think they may have spoken, or at the very least seen one another at some stage!

wet sand · 12-09-2014 4:22pm

It's fascinating stuff. I'm sure there are undiscovered medals, uniforms and photographs somewhere. It's also very sad to be left crippled at such a young age.

tac foley · 12-09-2014 4:42pm

It's happening right now to many who had served in Iraq and Afghanistan.

'Wars have an appetite for healthy young men'.

tac

wet sand · 14-09-2014 9:34pm

mod9maple wrote: »

I wonder did their paths cross. Not necessarily of course given the sheer amount of Irish troops there but you never know, nice to think they may have spoken, or at the very least seen one another at some stage!

Do you think the military would have more records on this guy and if so, who should I ask?

Peregrinus · 15-09-2014 3:11am

owenc wrote: »

I'm sure it was probably the same.

That law doesn't exist and the Catholic church still makes Protestants convert. Although at the moment its more that the babies have to be raised Catholic.

Personally I don't see what business it is of theirs I mean that decision should be up to the parents.

Ne Temere was introduced in 1908. It's purpose was not so much to ensure that in a mixed marriage the non-Catholic party would convert as to discourage mixed marriages from happening at all. It was striking successful in this object, in Ireland at any rate; the rate of Catholic/non-Catholic marriages was extremely low until the 1960s.

In the nineteenth century the convention in a mixed marriage was that boys would be raised in the father's faith, and girls in the mother's. Where a couple considered this unfeasible or undesirable one of them would consider conversion, and in general protestants were much more prone to convert than Catholics. There was also considerable social pressure to convert.

I have never come across a case of anybody being bribed to convert to Catholicism with an offer of land, if only because prior to widespread land purchase Catholics did not own a huge amount of land to begin with. I have come across cases where the bride's family would not consent to the marriage unless the husband converted to Catholicism and the husband duly did so so that the bride would not lose her inheritance as a result of being cut off by her family. I don't doubt that the husband's Protestant relatives would have spun this as the husband being offered property in order to convert.

Waitsian · 15-09-2014 4:42am

wet sand wrote: »

Do you think the military would have more records on this guy and if so, who should I ask?

The NA at Kew Gardens has all the British Army records from that era. There will be service records and (maybe) regimental diaries.

Beg, borrow (any good library), steal or buy this book:

http://www.amazon.com/Ancestor-Was-British-Army-Historians/dp/1903462991

I found it very revelatory.

Waitsian · 15-09-2014 4:48am

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C14227

The 55th is listed under Border Regt.

empower24 · 15-01-2017 7:37pm

Henry ely and Wife were baptised in Moyne in october 1870 with their children.
Roberts name does not appear on this page, which must have been mistake because he was baptised around the same time.

pedroeibar1 · 16-01-2017 1:07pm

Very interesting event! Link
It was quite a CoI area, Carden estate and nearer Moyne the Power-Lawlors. I wonder what caused the conversions....
In one of those genealogical coincidences I had a relative who was a CC in early 1800's Moyne and herself had one much later..

empower24 · 17-01-2017 8:52am

I have traced roberts father Henry to a marriage certificate in laois. Henry s father is named as john but can't find birth cert

pedroeibar1 · 17-01-2017 1:54pm

empower24 wrote: »

I have traced roberts father Henry to a marriage certificate in laois. Henry s father is named as john but can't find birth cert

That's because it predates civil registration. Have you looked in the C of I baptism registers?

Religious Conversions

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