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Should Michael Nugent and Atheist Ireland stop speaking for all atheists?

  • 28-06-2015 9:34pm
    #1
    antitheist1
    Registered Users Posts: 26 ✭


    My question is of course rhetorical. I am getting fed up of Micheal Nugent and atheist Ireland claiming to speaking for all atheists. He speaks with such authority about among all other things---what atheism is. Michael I just thought is was just not believing in God? Yet on Marian Finnucan you ascribed among other things a whole moral code to it.

    Micheal if one want to be an atheist and a moral bastard who are you to tell one that actually one as an atheist has to be a wolly moralist.

    Please Michael stop speaking for all atheists in Ireland and if future interviews please only claim to speak for atheists in your own organisation.


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Comments

  • #2
    antitheist1
    Registered Users Posts: 26 ✭antitheist1


    I have tried to edit my first post to make it less personal but for some reason I cannot. Apologies for the personalized tone of course.


  • #3
    TheChizler
    Registered Users Posts: 9,399 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    Where does he claim to speak for all atheists?


  • #4
    silverharp
    Registered Users Posts: 17,837 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    I caught a bit of that prog by accident, He didnt make any such claims. He said that people do not need religion to be moral.

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • #5
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,705 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    Not a member of Atheist Ireland, nor always in agreement with what they have to say, but think what they and Michael Nugent do say is a considerable step forward from nothing being said at all. Michael seems to work very hard at what he does, with what comes across as a sincere passion, and achieves quite a lot. The fact that he doesn't get it right in the eyes of all atheists all the time is moot, as I'm not sure it is an audience anyone is going to keep entirely happy all of the time.


  • #6
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    No organisation is ever going to speak for all its members. When the church speak out on social issues no one would assume they speak for all Catholics. Same with AI. I would imagine AI campaign on issues their members raise. Anytime I've heard Michael speak he doesn't talk about all atheists or claims to, in fact he often mentions how atheists often have diverse views.


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  • #7
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,202 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    eviltwin wrote: »
    No organisation is ever going to speak for all its members. When the church speak out on social issues no one would assume they speak for all Catholics. Same with AI.
    even with that analogy, it's not that applicable. it's a reasonable guess that a catholic is a member of the catholic church. not so with atheists and AI.


  • #8
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,705 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    even with that analogy, it's not that applicable. it's a reasonable guess that a catholic is a member of the catholic church. not so with atheists and AI.

    The thing is though, outside of the likes of AI, atheists are not organised so no one has an atheist mandate. Michael represents a certain atheist viewpoint with a limited mandate from some other atheists, so when an atheist viewpoint is sought by the media he's somewhere between the de facto choice and the only choice. Unless as an Irish atheist I wanted to put the work in to offer an alternative choice, better to go with what's there rather than denying atheism a voice on the basis of disagreement on many of the finer points.

    As I've said previously, the squabbling between atheists in Ireland is reminiscent of the Peoples front of Judea attacking the Popular Judean People's Front while under Roman occupation. All good fun, and I'll vocally disagree with Micheal et al on the minutiae these forums, but still support him on the major issues as he's the one putting the work in.


  • #9
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,649 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    even with that analogy, it's not that applicable. it's a reasonable guess that a catholic is a member of the catholic church. not so with atheists and AI.


    Probably better to say that the RCC Hierarchy assume to speak for everyone and to everyone in society, whether they be members of the RCC or not.

    At least Michael any time I've ever heard him being interviewed, has only spoken for his organization and for what he represents. I've never heard him presume to speak for all atheist and non-religious people (though I have a feeling that in Ireland at least there are far more of the latter than the former).


  • #10
    antitheist1
    Registered Users Posts: 26 ✭antitheist1


    silverharp wrote: »
    I caught a bit of that prog by accident, He didnt make any such claims. He said that people do not need religion to be moral.

    Listen to the piece again he makes generalised claims about the moral position of atheists.


  • #11
    Kidchameleon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,482 ✭✭✭Kidchameleon


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    even with that analogy, it's not that applicable. it's a reasonable guess that a catholic is a member of the catholic church. not so with atheists and AI.

    In fairness, a huge amount of Catholics would say the church doesnt speak for them. Ssm, contraception the list goes on.


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  • #12
    antitheist1
    Registered Users Posts: 26 ✭antitheist1


    smacl wrote: »
    The thing is though, outside of the likes of AI, atheists are not organised so no one has an atheist mandate. Michael represents a certain atheist viewpoint with a limited mandate from some other atheists, so when an atheist viewpoint is sought by the media he's somewhere between the de facto choice and the only choice. Unless as an Irish atheist I wanted to put the work in to offer an alternative choice, better to go with what's there rather than denying atheism a voice on the basis of disagreement on many of the finer points.

    As I've said previously, the squabbling between atheists in Ireland is reminiscent of the Peoples front of Judea attacking the Popular Judean People's Front while under Roman occupation. All good fun, and I'll vocally disagree with Micheal et al on the minutiae these forums, but still support him on the major issues as he's the one putting the work in.

    I've no problem with some atheists organising as long as they only claim to speak for atheists in their organisation and they make that absolutely clear in all interviews. I am an atheist I don't believe in God, I have very little in common with the god dillusional, constant nit picking, religious bashing, obsessional science worshipping views of atheist Ireland.

    When this group tries to speak for all atheists by defacto not making it clear that they only speak for atheists in their own organisation this to me is complete hypocrisy e.g an obsession by atheist Ireland against people putting down on the census they are Christians while on the other not making clear the limited mandate they actually have themselves.


  • #13
    antitheist1
    Registered Users Posts: 26 ✭antitheist1


    Kidchameleon wrote: »
    In fairness, a huge amount of Catholics would say the church doesnt speak for them. Ssm, contraception the list goes on.

    Atheism can not be compared with a church in any way. Its just a non belief in god!!!!!!


  • #14
    antitheist1
    Registered Users Posts: 26 ✭antitheist1


    eviltwin wrote: »
    No organisation is ever going to speak for all its members..

    that's my point I am not a member. Nor are dare I say the vast majority of atheists. And the day atheist Ireland has a majority of atheists in it is the day im signing back up to the catholic church.


  • #15
    silverharp
    Registered Users Posts: 17,837 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    antitheist1 wrote: »
    I've no problem with some atheists organising as long as they only claim to speak for atheists in their organisation and they make that absolutely clear in all interviews. I am an atheist I don't believe in God, I have very little in common with the god dillusional, constant nit picking, religious bashing, obsessional science worshipping views of atheist Ireland.

    When this group tries to speak for all atheists by defacto not making it clear that they only speak for atheists in their own organisation this to me is complete hypocrisy e.g an obsession by atheist Ireland against people putting down on the census they are Christians while on the other not making clear the limited mandate they actually have themselves.

    People understand. No group in society have the same goals. There were gay people against the last referendum. There are probably travellers out there who get annoyed by pavee point or Irish speakers who don't like the various lobbies. If you vsn get a critical mass of atheists with a different viewpoint setup your own group

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • #16
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,705 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    I would suggest that the impression that you get from the media that Michael Nugent speaks for atheism in Ireland actually comes largely from the media and the ever increasing demand of their audiences to better understand how and why to reject religion. If you don't like the job Michael and AI are doing, you need to come up the a viable alternative that meets the demand.


  • #17
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    antitheist1 wrote: »
    that's my point I am not a member. Nor are dare I say the vast majority of atheists. And the day atheist Ireland has a majority of atheists in it is the day im signing back up to the catholic church.

    Remarkably well thought out and reasoned strategy there.


  • #18
    antitheist1
    Registered Users Posts: 26 ✭antitheist1


    silverharp wrote: »
    People understand. No group in society have the same goals. There were gay people against the last referendum. There are probably travellers out there who get annoyed by pavee point or Irish speakers who don't like the various lobbies. If you vsn get a critical mass of atheists with a different viewpoint setup your own group

    atheists are not a group!!! Only those atheists who are in ai are a group. So they should make it clear they only speak for those people.


  • #19
    antitheist1
    Registered Users Posts: 26 ✭antitheist1


    Nodin wrote: »
    Remarkably well thought out and reasoned strategy there.

    A joke not a strategy.


  • #20
    antitheist1
    Registered Users Posts: 26 ✭antitheist1


    smacl wrote: »
    I would suggest that the impression that you get from the media that Michael Nugent speaks for atheism in Ireland actually comes largely from the media and the ever increasing demand of their audiences to better understand how and why to reject religion. If you don't like the job Michael and AI are doing, you need to come up the a viable alternative that meets the demand.

    Thats a problem I have, thos odea that atheist is about the rejection of religion. Who decided that? I don't regect religion. I just dont believe in god.

    The job they are doing to represent their members is a fine one im sure. I am not a member don't claim to represent me.


  • #21
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,705 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    antitheist1 wrote: »
    Thats a problem I have, thos odea that atheist is about the rejection of religion. Who decided that? I don't regect religion. I just dont believe in god.

    The job they are doing to represent their members is a fine one im sure. I am not a member don't claim to represent me.

    I'm not a member either, so they nor do they represent me. There is however an increasingly large interest in both atheism and secularism in Ireland that the media are keen to explore, and Atheist Ireland seem like a natural (only?) port of call. Feeling misrepresented in the media is an everyday event, just look at our politicians and celebs waxing lyrical on what it means to be Irish. In the larger scheme of things, I reckon Michael Nugent is far from the worst, and on balance beneficial.


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  • #22
    silverharp
    Registered Users Posts: 17,837 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    antitheist1 wrote: »
    atheists are not a group!!! Only those atheists who are in ai are a group. So they should make it clear they only speak for those people.

    but its fair to say they speak for more people than are members of their group. Parents worried about educational issues for example, various gay rights over the years etc. Putting some clarifying statement before everything they say would be become boring. Im sure interviewers are free to ask who they represent, and I doubt they would be too arrogant to say they represent all non believers.

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • #23
    Mr. CooL ICE
    Registered Users Posts: 17,486 ✭✭✭✭Mr. CooL ICE


    I'm not an AI member, but I do admire what Michael Nugent has achieved to date. As of a few years back, he was perhaps a bit too outspoken and possibly did claim to speak for more people than he claimed, but his position on that seems to have changed over time. I don't know his background, but campaigning for the secularisation of a country which is supposed to be secular is not an easy task, nor does it have a book of instructions. I imagine the entire thing is a learning process for him.

    I'd go as far to say that Michael and AI represent the viewpoints of a higher % of Ireland's atheists than Iona does for Irish catholics.


  • #24
    expectationlost
    Registered Users Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    antitheist1 wrote: »
    My question is of course rhetorical. I am getting fed up of Micheal Nugent and atheist Ireland claiming to speaking for all atheists. He speaks with such authority about among all other things---what atheism is. Michael I just thought is was just not believing in God? Yet on Marian Finnucan you ascribed among other things a whole moral code to it.

    Micheal if one want to be an atheist and a moral bastard who are you to tell one that actually one as an atheist has to be a wolly moralist.

    Please Michael stop speaking for all atheists in Ireland and if future interviews please only claim to speak for atheists in your own organisation.
    here the audio http://podcast.rasset.ie/podcasts/audio/2015/0627/20150627_rteradio1-marianfinucane-theangelus_c20803705_20803711_232_drm_.mp3

    speaks about morals at 9:45 minutes

    he says "Atheisms is simply the belief is that there are no gods, that the universe is natural and we get our morality and empathy and our compassion and our sense fairness and justice, from naural evolution, we can be kind to each other without inventing supernatural reason for being so."

    doing good, empathy, compassion, fairness, justice, kindness, tolerance is what antitheist1 seems to have a problem with.

    antitheist1 the degree to which you are any of these things is up to you.


  • #25
    wp_rathead
    Registered Users Posts: 10,067 ✭✭✭✭wp_rathead


    Think antithesit point is
    An atheist can be a wanker with no morals
    An atheist can be sound fecker with strong morals
    But the fact they are an atheist is irrelevant so linking morals with Atheism is unnecessary

    Could be way off though


  • #26
    Doctor DooM
    Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 25,868 Mod ✭✭✭✭Doctor DooM


    Quoth the raven...

    Anyway, I am not a member of AI, but over the last 6 months I've heard quite a few debates where the only person who didn't have me screaming at the tv/ radio is Mr Nugent. Perhaps I should join!


  • #27
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,705 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    wp_rathead wrote: »
    Think antithesit point is
    An atheist can be a wanker with no morals
    An atheist can be sound fecker with strong morals
    But the fact they are an atheist is irrelevant so linking morals with Atheism is unnecessary

    Could be way off though

    It is a fair point, and one I would largely agree with. At the same time however, you have a lot of people abandoning the Catholic church over here, to some extent because the morality it preaches is so far out of kilter with acceptable social behaviour in this country. The same sex marriage referendum is one example of this, the abuses by the clergy another. Those leaving the church are looking at alternative models for morality, and this includes secularism. Atheist Ireland apart from anything else also promotes secularism and a certain philosophy, and as such provides value in this context. My principal issue with Atheist Ireland is the name, but its not my organisations it is Michael's and the members, and as such they can call it whatever they want.


  • #28
    wp_rathead
    Registered Users Posts: 10,067 ✭✭✭✭wp_rathead


    smacl wrote: »
    It is a fair point, and one I would largely agree with. At the same time however, you have a lot of people abandoning the Catholic church over here, to some extent because the morality it preaches is so far out of kilter with acceptable social behaviour in this country. The same sex marriage referendum is one example of this, the abuses by the clergy another. Those leaving the church are looking at alternative models for morality, and this includes secularism. Atheist Ireland apart from anything else also promotes secularism and a certain philosophy, and as such provides value in this context. My principal issue with Atheist Ireland is the name, but its not my organisations it is Michael's and the members, and as such they can call it whatever they want.

    If was solely focused on Secularism I would consider joining
    2. Aims
    2.1. To promote atheism and reason over superstition and supernaturalism.
    2.2. To promote an ethical and secular Ireland where the state does not support or fund or give special treatment to any religion.

    Personally, I don't particularly care about promoting "atheism and reason"
    People are free to believe in what they wish
    I do, however, care about promoting a "secular Ireland where the state does not support or fund or give special treatment to any religion"

    But ya, I've no problem with AI- and I don't believe they do claim to speak for all Atheists


  • #29
    The Black Oil
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 18,193 CMod ✭✭✭✭The Black Oil


    I dunno. What are AI's policies on biscuits and pineapple on pizza?

    Moderator: Television, Psychology and Dublin County North.

    CMod: Entertainment



  • #30
    K4t
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,362 ✭✭✭K4t


    smacl wrote: »
    atheists are not organised so no one has an atheist mandate.
    Thank god.

    Ireland needs complete separation of church and state, not an atheist mandate. Unfortunately, Atheist Ireland seem to be one of the only groups actively lobbying for an end to church state relations in Ireland so they're a necessary evil- the idea of an atheist organization does not sit right with me, it's too close to everything an atheist/anti-theist should despise. But this is little old Catholic Ireland so it's existence is probably a good thing for the while.


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  • #31
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,202 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    i think the measure of success for AI would be achieving a situation where their existence becomes irrelevant.


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