Primary school college course and atheism

robindch · 19-02-2012 11:44pm

Silver_525 wrote: »

Just came across this thread, i'm also doing that religion exam on wednesday and can't believe those questions!!

Noting that number10a mentioned that these questions come from the mock exam, is there any chance you might be able to record a couple of the questions from the actual exam?

I'd hate to think they could be as batshit crazy as the mock, but perhaps they are.

Thanks in advance.

.

Peregrinus · 20-02-2012 5:18am

I’m gobsmacked. Like hectorh in post #25, I note that the nature and tone of the questions bears no relationship at all to the course syllabus on the Hibernia College website, which very clearly does not require students to be religious believers, or to profess religious beliefs.

I note that these are from a mock exam. It is possible that the mock is intended to indicate the form and structure of questions, rather than the actual substantive material the exam will address?

Number10a, do the questions reflect the approach taken in the teaching and coursework involved in the delivery of the module?

I’m entirely willing to believe that there are religious bigots out there, and that some of them are in influential positions in Colleges of Education. But these questions seem to me to be so totally disconnected from the course syllabus, and to reflect such inappropriate attitudes, that if this was really how the College was conducting its exams I think its credibility and even accreditation would have to be at risk.

Number10a, do you know if there are extern examiners involved in the process?

Gbear · 20-02-2012 11:42am

Silver_525 wrote: »

Don't even get me started on the stuff I came across in Alive-o during tp. Seriously shocked aswell at how backward the college is in terms of religion. I'd say we grin and bear it til we're qualified then get to a country where their school systems are somewhat normal

Sorry to somewhat go off topic. What's Alive-o?

Having recently finished primary school (i.e, in the last 15 years:pac:) I still remember it quite fondly. I had the luck of going to a non-denominational one.
I don't know much about catholic primaries but it's always seemed utterly surreal being told of kids having to learn prayers and the kind of bollocks mentioned in the OP.

For better or worse I was been shielded from this overt kind of indoctrination as a child.

Seeing as there's a push to remove religious orders from running schools, does anyone know if that will imply a change in curriculum?

kylith · 20-02-2012 12:34pm

Gbear wrote: »

Sorry to somewhat go off topic. What's Alive-o?

Having recently finished primary school (i.e, in the last 15 years:pac:) I still remember it quite fondly. I had the luck of going to a non-denominational one.
I don't know much about catholic primaries but it's always seemed utterly surreal being told of kids having to learn prayers and the kind of bollocks mentioned in the OP.

For better or worse I was been shielded from this overt kind of indoctrination as a child.

Seeing as there's a push to remove religious orders from running schools, does anyone know if that will imply a change in curriculum?

There would certainly have to be, especially in 1st and 6th class where currently a good chunk of the year is taken up with preperation for religious rites. I think that the time formerly taken up by religion should be used for the sciences, but it'll probably just become Ethics or something.

Man, I'd have loved a non-denom school. I still remember learning all of the prayers by rote: 32 of us mindlessly chanting them back at the teacher. Even as a child it bugged me that full stops, commas, and the rest were ignored by people praying, and I always insisted on saying them 'properly'. What a little pedant I was

coffee_cake · 20-02-2012 12:37pm

kylith wrote: »

What a little pedant I was

me too
then i'd get glared at

kylith · 20-02-2012 12:39pm

bluewolf wrote: »

me too
then i'd get glared at

Oh, they do love their glaring.

recedite · 20-02-2012 12:40pm

Gbear wrote: »

Seeing as there's a push to remove religious orders from running schools, does anyone know if that will imply a change in curriculum?

I would see it more as a push to displace them. No, it won't affect the curriculum of this particular training college.
A couple of years ago the educate together crowd became successful at setting up secular primary schools, and now they are setting up secondary schools for these kids to move on to. I wouldn't be surprised if they establish a teacher training college in another few years, and that is where the change of curriculum comes in. If the schools get the clientele, ie the kids, then they will need the teachers. Obviously any school can employ a newly trained teacher from any college, but the fact is, at the moment catholics train and take on catholics. Protestants train and take on protestants, which leaves no room for anyone falling outside these two categories. AFAIK no muslim has ever been trained as a teacher in this country, hence they bring in key staff from abroad for their schools.

PhoenixParker · 20-02-2012 12:42pm

The answer to the first question is false and the answer to the second question is that the statement "Atheism has had, historically speaking, a negative effect on society is false"

Or at least I hope it is.

I don't have a problem with the questions themselves that much. They're the equivalent of "Shakespeare is an accurate historical source, True or False" on a history paper. I do have a problem with university exams asking questions that a kid in sixth class should be able to answer. Then again I also have a problem with MCQ precisely because they produce this sort of test of student ability, i.e. none.

magicbastarder · 20-02-2012 12:43pm

this thread has made it to broadsheet.

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2012/02/20/literally-unbelievable/

Gbear · 20-02-2012 12:55pm

recedite wrote: »

I would see it more as a push to displace them. No, it won't affect the curriculum of this particular training college.
A couple of years ago the educate together crowd became successful at setting up secular primary schools, and now they are setting up secondary schools for these kids to move on to. I wouldn't be surprised if they establish a teacher training college in another few years, and that is where the change of curriculum comes in. If the schools get the clientele, ie the kids, then they will need the teachers. Obviously any school can employ a newly trained teacher from any college, but the fact is, at the moment catholics train and take on catholics. Protestants train and take on protestants, which leaves no room for anyone falling outside these two categories. AFAIK no muslim has ever been trained as a teacher in this country, hence they bring in key staff from abroad for their schools.

Wow. I actually had no idea it worked that way. I assumed there was a general teaching curriculum and then specific schools would direct a teacher towards a particular brand on nonsense.

It really is very disheartening to learn how backwards our education system is right from the start of school.:(

In the recent debates discussing the secularisation of education between Educate Together and parents that appeared on the likes of the Late Late I assumed that the craziness the secular parents were put through was somewhat anomalous.

I think the eventual secularisation is inevitable but I only hope it's in place by the time I get around to having my own sproglets.

Silver_525 · 20-02-2012 1:20pm

is there any chance you might be able to record a couple of the questions from the actual exam?

Ya il try do that-would be for some interesting reading no doubt!
Alive-o is the religion books used in all Catholic primary schools. It's fairly painful stuff to be honest and ya they have to learn off loads of different prayers each year.

mikhail · 20-02-2012 1:22pm

Galvasean wrote: »

I recall reading somewhere that President Higgins described himself as being Catholic, but not necessarily believing in heaven and hell.
Not really sure what that entails, a 'cultural catholic' of sorts perhaps?

I do find that statement re: 'atheist humanists' muddled at best. Are they really implying that Jo' Stalin practiced humanism?

I think he refers to himself as "spiritual", but deflects detailed questions regarding his beliefs.

Sparks · 20-02-2012 1:52pm

I had to check the date to be sure this wasn't the start of april... and then I remembered our "comparative religions" bit from our RI classes (you're an atheist? you've been one all your life? doesn't matter, there's no non-religious schools available, and Religious Indoctrination Instruction is mandatory). That was 20 years or so ago, and the only reason I remember it is that our hapless nun spent twenty minutes trying to convince a bunch of teenagers that Buddhism was inhumane. Which was tragicly comic to watch, but you have to wonder, if this is still being taught today, isn't it about time we copped on?

expectationlost · 20-02-2012 2:04pm

its not that the answer could be false false false the premise of the questions is childish

Pwpane · 20-02-2012 2:37pm

Gbear wrote: »

Sorry to somewhat go off topic. What's Alive-o?

Having recently finished primary school (i.e, in the last 15 years:pac:) I still remember it quite fondly. I had the luck of going to a non-denominational one.
I don't know much about catholic primaries but it's always seemed utterly surreal being told of kids having to learn prayers and the kind of bollocks mentioned in the OP.

For better or worse I was been shielded from this overt kind of indoctrination as a child.

Seeing as there's a push to remove religious orders from running schools, does anyone know if that will imply a change in curriculum?

The record of the Churches when they 'leave' schools is seen in schools at second level. Before 'leaving' they ensure strong representation on the Boards of Management. Google the composition of Boards of Management of the different types of school. Also consider the Trusts recently set up by various Catholic denominations to be Trustees of the schools they no longer have personnel to run. Also consider that Trustees have a large part in the appointment of Principals and Deputy Principals, and that a major concern is the continuation of the ethos of the school.

Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose.

The only way to achieve change is from the bottom up as in, perhaps, Educate Together.

Beruthiel · 20-02-2012 2:48pm

I find it utterly shocking that this is what passes for education in our third level collages.
It is one thing to learn about various religions, but, when questions like the atheism one are considered to be an accurate assessment of the truth, well, the mind just boggles.

number10a
Has it been brought to the attention of anyone who can do something about it?

OneOfThem Stumbled · 20-02-2012 3:56pm

number10a wrote: »

They go on then to comment on how Hinduism is negative because of the belief in karma and that the poor must accept their destiny to be poor and accept that the upper classes are destined to be wealthy and powerful. Hmmmm....... A belief can have negative implications for the world?? Ban on condoms in AIDS-ridden parts of Africa, anyone???

I would be inclined to say that those questions cannot be answered with either true/false. However the first one is so absolutely clearly false: it even specifies humanism. I would find it hard for anyone to consider Nazism atheist in nature - but as for humanist :rolleyes:. Even Marxism I would not consider to be atheist really: it was opposed to all forms of organised religion, but didn't actually care about faith per se.

oceanclub · 20-02-2012 5:07pm

There's at least one journo following this issue up; hope to see more about it soon. It's appalling that a college here can teach that atheism, humanism and Hinduism are negative as objective facts in an exam situation.

Needless to say, if the situation was reversed and Catholicism was the issue, David Quinn, John Waters and the usual crew would be having a field day.

P.

Zeouterlimits · 20-02-2012 6:37pm

Beruthiel wrote: »

number10a
Has it been brought to the attention of anyone who can do something about it?

Indeed, I'd really like to know this.

Gbear · 20-02-2012 6:48pm

Zeouterlimits wrote: »

Indeed, I'd really like to know this.

If he hasn't he'll get his Atheist club card revoked:pac:

byhookorbycrook · 20-02-2012 7:02pm

Religion is taught in every primary school in Ireland,has to be under our current system. There are NO non-denominational primary schools in Ireland. Educate together and some Gaelscoileanna are multi-denominational,where no one religion is favoured over another.

Alive-O is the Catholic religion syllabus for primary, Learn together is the Educate together syllabus.

I was in Mary Immaculate college over 25 years ago and we learned about different religions but there was nothing like the type of q that seems to have appeared through Hibernia. There are lots of atheists in primary teaching, they just don't make it public to parents!!

Gbear · 20-02-2012 7:20pm

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Religion is taught in every primary school in Ireland,has to be under our current system. There are NO non-denominational primary schools in Ireland. Educate together and some Gaelscoileanna are multi-denominational,where no one religion is favoured over another.

I was in a non-denominational school from about 93-99 (when I left for France and they have NO religion of any kind in any state schools as far as I know - it's great) and I don't recall any talk of religion (other than a mention that if you were a catholic you got time off for communion prep). I stayed until 3rd class. Does it all happen in 4th-6th class?

DaveyByrne · 20-02-2012 8:46pm

please don't leave... stay here and educate our children!

spacetweek · 20-02-2012 8:49pm

eastbono wrote: »

Just dot the i's and cross the t's and get your dip. Then go and teach in another country.

No, I wish people wouldn't do that. I wish they'd stay and fight. If all the freethinkers emigrate rather than teach here, how is the system ever going to change?

Galvasean · 20-02-2012 10:47pm

oceanclub wrote: »

There's at least one journo following this issue up; hope to see more about it soon

Linky winky?

fisgon · 21-02-2012 1:20am

Forget prayers in the Dail, forget the religious oath for president, and the Angelus, the Vatican Embassy, (although all fights worth fighting), the religious, - and specifically Catholic - control of primary schools is hands down the biggest issue in this country for anyone interested in a rational, secular society free from religious dogma and superstition.

This is clearer and clearer, the primary schools are where the church gets any of its remaining power. The primary school system is responsible for the indoctrination of generations of sheep in this country, and the reason why even after all the unforgiveable filth that this institution has been responsible for still almost half the country gets on its knees every Sunday in front of a man in a dog collar. The batsh1t insane questions on this sample test are indicative of the problem with the current system, and the absolute necessity for change if you care at all about living in a sane republic.

Huff n Puff · 21-02-2012 1:51am

Shocking stuff. Thanks number10a for highlighting this.

As an atheist about to start the Hibernia College Primary School course it is good to know that my college will place me on the 'high risk of committing unspeakable horrors list'.

I hope they don't discover my diabolical plan to burn down the local school in the name of atheism. Damn you all to nonexistent hell! (Joke!!)

Back in my younger days (15 years ago) I attended Mary I for 2 years. I can still remember to this day arguing about the validity of religion with the lecturer and being looked upon as some sort of idiot / troublemaker (by the lecturer who was, by the way, a very nice man and my classmates). Times are a changing though and the school system will catch up eventually.

Issues like this push more people to the side of reason as it gets people talking and thinking. When people start to examine religion many will find the holes. Funnily enough my father was a religion teacher (and a science teacher....go figure!) and he managed to raise 3 atheist sons who are now teaching or about to start teaching. The more he argued the more we questioned everything.

recedite · 21-02-2012 4:18pm

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Religion is taught in every primary school in Ireland,has to be under our current system. There are NO non-denominational primary schools in Ireland. Educate together and some Gaelscoileanna are multi-denominational,where no one religion is favoured over another.

The terminology you are using hides the ugly reality of using state funded schools to deliver religious indoctrination to children in their formative years.
The above quote is unhelpful because it masks the fact that some schools will indoctrinate kids, and some will not.
Take the term "non-denominational". Its a kind of double negative, because denominational or segregated schooling is itself a negative concept.

An Educate Together school would teach kids about world religions in the same way as it would teach about world cultures, or geography. That is teaching, not religious indoctrination. What would a non-denominational school be? One run by militant atheists, where if a kid mentioned religion, he would be taken out and shot? There is no "non-denominational" school in Ireland in the same way as there is no "non-geography" school.

The term "multi-denominational" also lacks specific meaning. The VEC are proposing to set up primary schools in which the kids are segregated only during the mandatory "religious education" class. They would be divided into different groups and each group indoctrinated with a different brand of mumbo jumbo. Your term multi-denominational fails to distinguish this from the more objective teaching about religion of the Educate Together model, where any religious indoctrination would have to occur outside school hours.

So, even the terminology invented and perpetuated by the religious is misleading and inaccurate. That's without even getting started on the indoctrination itself, including the prayers and imagery pupils are exposed to throughout the day in a denominational school.

darealtulip · 21-02-2012 4:49pm

DaveyByrne wrote: »

please don't leave... stay here and educate our children!

+1 do stay and teach our children!!

darealtulip · 21-02-2012 7:50pm

I wrote both minister and college and am awaiting reply.(not that I suspect any reply, but you never know)

Primary school college course and atheism

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