Sagem IDT81-SD picnic box

foxire · 26-10-2009 10:50pm

mrdtv wrote: »

Very interesting. What kind of aerial systems are you using. BTW that Sagem box reads out the C/N ratio in the signal information page: do you know what it is as that is the most important parameter. It would be nice to know for Brougher Mt and Cairn Hill. I agree that's an excellent MPEG4 bargain basement STB.

I am not familar with aerials. I just have a standard aerial. When I get home its dark and don,t know how many elements there is. I have two aerials, one for Cairn Hill and another for Brougher Mountain, both horizontal. I will be able to find out at the weekend. Both are up a number of years.

For Cairn Hill on RTE1, Viterbi BER is 1.OE-7 and C/N is 24 dB

For Brougher Mountain on BBC2, Viterbi BER is 1.OE-7 and C/N is 24 dB.

As I have no knowledge of what the above means I would be very grateful to know what they mean.

foxire · 26-10-2009 11:14pm

polyfusion wrote: »

I don't think this is a fault. When you switch on the power to the unit, it's probably like booting a PC, it's finding settings, channels, favorites, EPG details and time and so on. It displays "init" on the display while doing this, then goes into standby, with the clock displayed. Then when you press the standby button, it will then start decoding the signal and send it to the TV.

Analogue will stay on because it's looped through the unit.

I haven't noticed the other problem you mentioned. Is the unit in a well ventilated place?

This is exactly what happens when I switch on the power. When the clock is displayed nothing happens. I then press the standby button and the display goes blank. If I wait will the signal come to the TV.

Perhaps I have no patience when I press other buttons to get it to come on.

The other problem hasn,t happened since. It may be only happen occassionally. The unit is under the TV and well ventilated.

mrdtv · 27-10-2009 11:04am

foxire wrote: »

I am not familar with aerials. I just have a standard aerial. When I get home its dark and don,t know how many elements there is. I have two aerials, one for Cairn Hill and another for Brougher Mountain, both horizontal. I will be able to find out at the weekend. Both are up a number of years.

For Cairn Hill on RTE1, Viterbi BER is 1.OE-7 and C/N is 24 dB

For Brougher Mountain on BBC2, Viterbi BER is 1.OE-7 and C/N is 24 dB.

As I have no knowledge of what the above means I would be very grateful to know what they mean.

These are excellent error free signals. A BER like this is equivalent to virtually zero picture errors (stands for Bit Error Rate). The C/N (carrier to noise) ratio must be over 20dB for 64QAM transmissions ( as used by RTE, ITV/C4 and SDN in N. Ireland and all post-DSO UK stations eg the ones in Wales now being received in Wicklow and Wexford) and over 14dB for the 16QAM transmissions used in pre-DSO UK regions such as N.I by the BBC on Mux 1, BBC B and the two commercial multiplexes which used to be called Muxes C and D (now Arqiva A and

. If your C/N comfortably exceeds the failure points then you are always going to get perfect reception. Do you get everything from Brougher Mountain including ITV/Four/Five and where are you roughly speaking?

polyfusion · 27-10-2009 2:01pm

foxire wrote: »

This is exactly what happens when I switch on the power. When the clock is displayed nothing happens. I then press the standby button and the display goes blank. If I wait will the signal come to the TV.

Perhaps I have no patience when I press other buttons to get it to come on.

Yep, you just have to be patient with a cold boot. When you press the standby button, it takes 10-15 seconds for the picture to arrive; pressing buttons will not make it load faster. If you leave it in standby constantly, it will switch to the channel almost instantly.

I'd be interested too in whether you are getting 4, 5 etc (muxes 2 and A at this page http://www.ukfree.tv/txdetail.php?a=IH350527 ). I was doing some experiments with the same box about 50km west of Broughter, but only once got a sniff of them with a very large group A aerial. How far are you from the transmitter, and in what direction?

EDIT: Just read one of your previous posts and see you're in Tyrone, so you're probably well able to get those muxes. Incidently, would Truskmore not be a closer solution for the RTE channels at you location?

Digifriendly · 27-10-2009 10:41pm

BBC Radio Ulster had as its lead report yesterday (Mon.) the vast amount of shoppers coming up North from across the Border on ROI's Bank holiday. Wonder how many purchased the Picnic Box?

foxire · 28-10-2009 12:00am

polyfusion wrote: »

Yep, you just have to be patient with a cold boot. When you press the standby button, it takes 10-15 seconds for the picture to arrive; pressing buttons will not make it load faster. If you leave it in standby constantly, it will switch to the channel almost instantly.

I'd be interested too in whether you are getting 4, 5 etc (muxes 2 and A at this page http://www.ukfree.tv/txdetail.php?a=IH350527 ). I was doing some experiments with the same box about 50km west of Broughter, but only once got a sniff of them with a very large group A aerial. How far are you from the transmitter, and in what direction?

EDIT: Just read one of your previous posts and see you're in Tyrone, so you're probably well able to get those muxes. Incidently, would Truskmore not be a closer solution for the RTE channels at you location?

Thanks for the information regarding the switching on of the unit. I now know it works perfectly.

I am getting all the channels except for a couple of minor channels (muxes 1, 2, A, B, C and D). I can get BB1, BBC2, BBC Three, BBC Four, ITV1, ITV2, ITV3 etc.

On the webpage you provided above it says I am 1,429km northeast of Brougher Mountain. I live in the Carrickmore area about equal distance from Omagh, Cookstown and Dungannon.

foxire · 28-10-2009 12:20am

mrdtv wrote: »

These are excellent error free signals. A BER like this is equivalent to virtually zero picture errors (stands for Bit Error Rate). The C/N (carrier to noise) ratio must be over 20dB for 64QAM transmissions ( as used by RTE, ITV/C4 and SDN in N. Ireland and all post-DSO UK stations eg the ones in Wales now being received in Wicklow and Wexford) and over 14dB for the 16QAM transmissions used in pre-DSO UK regions such as N.I by the BBC on Mux 1, BBC B and the two commercial multiplexes which used to be called Muxes C and D (now Arqiva A and . If your C/N comfortably exceeds the failure points then you are always going to get perfect reception. Do you get everything from Brougher Mountain including ITV/Four/Five and where are you roughly speaking?

Thanks for the information. I am learning a lot from this board. When I bought the box I ordered a Pure/AV Belkin scart lead. Would that have given the good readings?

I am getting all the channels from Brougher Mountain including ITV/Four/Five and Dave etc. I have an eight element aerial for Brougher Mountain. Behind the last element there is a flat piece of metal about 2" wise and then a deflector with four elements - two at the top and two at the bottom like an arrow.

For Cairn Hill I have the same type of an aerial as Brought Mountain but with sixteen elements.

I live in the Carrickmore area of Co. Tyrone.

mrdtv · 28-10-2009 9:49am

foxire wrote: »

Thanks for the information. I am learning a lot from this board. When I bought the box I ordered a Pure/AV Belkin scart lead. Would that have given the good readings?

I am getting all the channels from Brougher Mountain including ITV/Four/Five and Dave etc. I have an eight element aerial for Brougher Mountain. Behind the last element there is a flat piece of metal about 2" wise and then a deflector with four elements - two at the top and two at the bottom like an arrow.

For Cairn Hill I have the same type of an aerial as Brought Mountain but with sixteen elements.

I live in the Carrickmore area of Co. Tyrone.

No, its your aerial system that determines the quality of your reception. You are not far from Brougher which is only 500W DTT until DSO when it becomes 20kW which will be excellent, and Cairn Hill DTT tests are probably running at a minimum of 20kW or more. And you have two dedicated aerials multiplexed together.

lawhec · 28-10-2009 4:35pm

polyfusion wrote: »

EDIT: Just read one of your previous posts and see you're in Tyrone, so you're probably well able to get those muxes. Incidently, would Truskmore not be a closer solution for the RTE channels at you location?

The Mid-Tyrone area that foxire lives in can normally get good signals from Truskmore and most of the homes in the area have aerials for RTÉ aimed towards Sligo however in some places Carin Hill comes in fairly well to, thanks to the locality being quite high up.

Historically a UHF signal for RTÉ1 & RTÉ2 in Tyrone, be it from Carin Hill, Clermont Carn or Holywell Hill, had an advantage over Truskmore in that (a) all TV's and VCR's sold locally could easily tune in to RTÉ otherwise you'd need either a TV or VCR with a VHF tuner which wasn't common on sets designed for the UK market or a frequency shifter which brought the VHF signals into the UHF band, and (b) a second (UHF) aerial wasn't required when TnaG and TV3 launched and could be received by just tuning in with their current set up.

Carrickmore is on the inside edge of the analogue service area for Brougher Mountain, a short trip a few miles east to Pomeroy starts to favour Divis.

TVDX · 28-10-2009 6:40pm

I went as far as signing up for a uk mail redirect, 19.30 for the month to get two of these shipped to them and in turn to me. It still works out nice and cheap per unit in the end after their delivery charges.

http://www.my-uk-mail.co.uk

Thanks for the recommendation of this box. I needed something quick and now for a low price and this box will do the trick. Hope it all works out now.

foxire · 28-10-2009 11:36pm

lawhec wrote: »

The Mid-Tyrone area that foxire lives in can normally get good signals from Truskmore and most of the homes in the area have aerials for RTÉ aimed towards Sligo however in some places Carin Hill comes in fairly well to, thanks to the locality being quite high up.

Historically a UHF signal for RTÉ1 & RTÉ2 in Tyrone, be it from Carin Hill, Clermont Carn or Holywell Hill, had an advantage over Truskmore in that (a) all TV's and VCR's sold locally could easily tune in to RTÉ otherwise you'd need either a TV or VCR with a VHF tuner which wasn't common on sets designed for the UK market or a frequency shifter which brought the VHF signals into the UHF band, and (b) a second (UHF) aerial wasn't required when TnaG and TV3 launched and could be received by just tuning in with their current set up.

Carrickmore is on the inside edge of the analogue service area for Brougher Mountain, a short trip a few miles east to Pomeroy starts to favour Divis.

I used to get RTE1 and RTE2 from Truskmore. After TnaG and TV3 launched I noticed when moving from one channel to another that I was getting a faint picture on one of the spare channels. I got a TV engineer to see if I could get TnaG and TV3. He informed me that I was picking up the signal from Cairn Hill through the Brougher mountain aerial.

The engineer put up an aerial for Cairn Hill and he said that the VHF service would be coming to an end anyway. As well my brother was getting the signals from Cairn Hill and Brougher mountain with one wideband aerial and he is living in Killyclogher close to Omagh. It meant that I had no need for three aerials and I had a wider choice when going to buy a new TV. I wasn't confined to my local area. All my neighours are getting their signal from Truskmore.

kah22 · 17-11-2009 6:02pm

Hi I've bought the Sagem Picnic Box from Curry's online and there is one bug in it that is making me screem :eek::eek::eek: and that's that the dam box keeps freezing!

From a few articles I've read online this seems a common fault with the Picnic Box but I'm wondering if anyone has come up with a fix.

My own particular box arrived without a manual so I had to set it up by trial and error, another bug though is RTE been away down in the 800's and from what I can see unless you put all your channels into a favourites list there is no way of altering the order of channels - not that the favourites issue is a big deal

Go into a shop and they'll tell you that digi boxes are non returnable but I'm wondering if that is the case with Curry's and the Picnic Box as it may not be fit for the purpose it was intended. I've posted a question about returning the box on the Which Online website and it will be interesting to see what they have to say.

Sam Russell · 17-11-2009 8:19pm

kah22 wrote: »

Hi I've bought the Sagem Picnic Box from Curry's online and there is one bug in it that is making me screem :eek::eek::eek: and that's that the dam box keeps freezing!

From a few articles I've read online this seems a common fault with the Picnic Box but I'm wondering if anyone has come up with a fix.

My own particular box arrived without a manual so I had to set it up by trial and error, another bug though is RTE been away down in the 800's and from what I can see unless you put all your channels into a favourites list there is no way of altering the order of channels - not that the favourites issue is a big deal

Go into a shop and they'll tell you that digi boxes are non returnable but I'm wondering if that is the case with Curry's and the Picnic Box as it may not be fit for the purpose it was intended. I've posted a question about returning the box on the Which Online website and it will be interesting to see what they have to say.

I have a Sagem Picnic box that has exhibited a fault a one point but generally it has functioned. The box overheats and should be well ventilated. It is also poorly shielded and should not be put near other boxes.

It has a number of other faults. The remote is poorly designed and the whole product is cheaply made. It is not possible to change country code, no surprise there. Consequently, it puts the Irish stations in the 800s. Bizare, is the reverse order. The changeover to radio is clunky, and the change back is odd. When on radio, it does not have a screen saver.

It does give EPG and teletext on RTE1 in H264. If it was not cheap, I would not recommend it. But it does work, and picture quality is good. Display shape is a bit variable. It does not depict 4:3 properly sometimes, and does not return correctly after an ad break.

Overall, I'll let you know. The jury is still out.

marclt · 18-11-2009 11:29am

Sam Russell wrote: »

I have a Sagem Picnic box that has exhibited a fault a one point but generally it has functioned.

The changeover to radio is clunky, and the change back is odd. When on radio, it does not have a screen saver.

You don't have to press the radio button on the remote control to access the radio channels. You can just go straight to the channel number.

So if I access 700, it brings me straight to BBC Radio 1 complete with the BBC radio mheg and various information that throws up. Much easier.

I agree though, the box does have some quirks... and the initializing at the beginning is a pain, but then the Chorus sagem box operates in the same slow way too!

Sam Russell · 18-11-2009 1:34pm

marclt wrote: »

You don't have to press the radio button on the remote control to access the radio channels. You can just go straight to the channel number.

So if I access 700, it brings me straight to BBC Radio 1 complete with the BBC radio mheg and various information that throws up. Much easier.

I agree though, the box does have some quirks... and the initializing at the beginning is a pain, but then the Chorus sagem box operates in the same slow way too!

In Dublin, the local 'foreign' stations are all allocated numbers starting with 800. The radio stations are 800 and up, the TV stations are 800 and up. To access a radio station, you have to press the radio button wich is maked with a music stave symbol. To return to TV, you press the 'exit' button.

As I say, clunky.

It has frozen a few times on me, I suspect overheating as analogue reception is fine.

Sagem produce two versions of this box in France, a SD box like this, and an HD box with HDMI connector. I wonder if the software for the French box would work? H264 might be a casualty though.

marclt · 18-11-2009 2:21pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

In Dublin, the local 'foreign' stations are all allocated numbers starting with 800. The radio stations are 800 and up, the TV stations are 800 and up. To access a radio station, you have to press the radio button wich is maked with a music stave symbol. To return to TV, you press the 'exit' button.

As I say, clunky.

It has frozen a few times on me, I suspect overheating as analogue reception is fine.

Two points.

Firstly, to access the radio channels you don't have to press the music symbol button, you can just key in the channel number. It works, I've tried it. You can, of course press the 'radio' button and it will give you a list of the radio channels all in one place. Useful - This is different to some other boxes but as I have already said, I've seen it in other sagem boxes too.

I've a box, it never freezes and doesn't over heat - certainly the box never feels that warm. Each box is different I guess :rolleyes:

Secondly, the box was never intended for the Irish market hence Irish channels going into the 800 range. It was intended for the UK for a service that didn't get off the ground in the end. The fact it is capable of receiving the test channels is a bonus - when you compare price and spec and availability of similar boxes.

One area that the box does excel in is digital text, very quick with virtually no associated problems as far as I can tell.

It's not all bad... and all for £20!

Sam Russell · 18-11-2009 2:44pm

marclt wrote: »

Two points.

Firstly, to access the radio channels you don't have to press the music symbol button, you can just key in the channel number. It works, I've tried it. You can, of course press the 'radio' button and it will give you a list of the radio channels all in one place. Useful - This is different to some other boxes but as I have already said, I've seen it in other sagem boxes too.

I've a box, it never freezes and doesn't over heat - certainly the box never feels that warm. Each box is different I guess :rolleyes:

Secondly, the box was never intended for the Irish market hence Irish channels going into the 800 range. It was intended for the UK for a service that didn't get off the ground in the end. The fact it is capable of receiving the test channels is a bonus - when you compare price and spec and availability of similar boxes.

One area that the box does excel in is digital text, very quick with virtually no associated problems as far as I can tell.

It's not all bad... and all for £20!

The radio stations on my box are 800 - 803. The TV stations are also 800 - 803. So how does it know which 800 you mean?

I think the box performs well and very well for the price. The equiv Sagem box in France is €139.

However it is of cheap construction with inadequate shielding which causes interference on analogue. The pass through UHF causes excess noise if the box in not powered, it must be in standby at least. It does get warm, particularly in the front LH side as you look at it. It is after long use, late in the evening that it freezes/ pixalates the picture. The case is clearly warm, so the insides are warmer. Lack of a fan and presumably heatsinks would explain the overheating. I had to move the box away from the Freesat receiver because of interferance.

As I say, good for the price and good for the current 'TESTS - NOT A SERVICE!'

kah22 · 19-11-2009 4:54pm

As I mentioned in an earlier post I had a problem with my itd81 box freezing when I was switching from channel to channel. I'm guessing that one of the reasons for doing so was that I was switching to quickly.

However, I have discovered that if I set up a favourite list, and set is as my default then I can order the stations in whatever way I want. I've also discovered that if I use the program guide to travel up and down the list that it doesn't freeze, at least it hasn't so far.

There is another difficult I seem to be having and haven't figured out what to do yet. I was watching 'Murder She Wrote' on BBC 1 this afternoon and noticed that the picture did not cover the full of the screen there was a bar on the right and left of the screen.

I popped over to another American made for TV movie and that had the same problem. Other programs view as normal. Any ideas as to why this should be. My old digii-box filled the full screen as does analogue.

As far as aerials are concerned I had mine completely updated about 18 months back, new cabling and all by a registered aerial man so I guess everything is pointing in the right direction.

Perfect picture otherwise.

Kevin

mrdtv · 19-11-2009 5:16pm

kah22 wrote: »

As I mentioned in an earlier post I had a problem with my itd81 box freezing when I was switching from channel to channel. I'm guessing that one of the reasons for doing so was that I was switching to quickly.

However, I have discovered that if I set up a favourite list, and set is as my default then I can order the stations in whatever way I want. I've also discovered that if I use the program guide to travel up and down the list that it doesn't freeze, at least it hasn't so far.

There is another difficult I seem to be having and haven't figured out what to do yet. I was watching 'Murder She Wrote' on BBC 1 this afternoon and noticed that the picture did not cover the full of the screen there was a bar on the right and left of the screen.

I popped over to another American made for TV movie and that had the same problem. Other programs view as normal. Any ideas as to why this should be. My old digii-box filled the full screen as does analogue.

As far as aerials are concerned I had mine completely updated about 18 months back, new cabling and all by a registered aerial man so I guess everything is pointing in the right direction.

Perfect picture otherwise.

Kevin

you use the program guide and work my way up and

People need to realise that this was not fully tested by Sky as Ofcom canned Picnic. Sagem was left with a big box order to offload on the market: Curry's just sell it with a warranty so they will replace it with something else if it fails in twelve months time. There will be no OTA downloads for this box because it is NOT supported in the UK. However if Irish DTT does launch as MPEG4 T1 then Sagem will be in pole position to launch a zapper box: it just requires OTA downloads to fix the box bugs which an operational Irish DTT service would have to support. The benefits of synergies with the UK are obvious: software updates and wider box choice. For now its a very interesting tester box at bargain basement prices. No further whingeing given its status and context!

Sam Russell · 19-11-2009 5:27pm

mrdtv wrote: »

No further whingeing given its status and context!

This is not wingeing, it is reviewing a box for its performance and failings, as a service to others with more sense not to be first to purchase.

Sagem do produce this box, or something like it, for the French market, so software should be available for it in the future, particularly if Sagem market the box here. It does work very well, but it is difficult to test it, with the service 'Tests - not a service' keeps on reconfiguring and switching off from time to time.

I would like to test my one with the UK overspill, and will before too long.

Rick_ · 19-11-2009 5:41pm

Seeing as Windows Media Centre won't pick up the tests but a cheap Digifusion STB will but just gives me audio, I was thinking of getting one of these boxes myself and enjoying having RTÉ and Freeview in one box rather than having to keep switching between analogue and Freeview to channel hop.

Are these boxes still available? Can channels be renamed and reordered to suit?

Sam Russell · 19-11-2009 5:45pm

Paddy C wrote: »

Can channels be renamed and reordered to suit?

No, you cannot change the stations, but you can set up 'Favourites'.

marclt · 19-11-2009 5:48pm

Paddy C wrote: »

Are these boxes still available? Can channels be renamed and reordered to suit?

Just searching on Currys... and they no longer seem to be listed! There was only ever going to be limited stock anyway.

Perhaps there are some left in store?

Rick_ · 19-11-2009 6:09pm

Rang their reserve line, no stock in Newry or in PC World at Sprucefield... damnit. Ah well.

Digifriendly · 20-11-2009 11:51am

Paddy C wrote: »

Rang their reserve line, no stock in Newry or in PC World at Sprucefield... damnit. Ah well.

Have you tried Rushmere (Craigavon Shopping Centre)? Saw a few there recently.

PyeContinental · 20-11-2009 12:03pm

Paddy C wrote: »

Seeing as Windows Media Centre won't pick up the tests

Yes it will.
You either don't have a DVB-T tuner in your media center pc or you don't have an mpeg4 codec installed. If you have Win7, it has a native mpeg4 codec installed.

Rick_ · 20-11-2009 12:52pm

I have Windows 7 and a Hauppauge HVR4000. Nothing coming up on my system whatsoever. A cheap-ass £10 Argos receiver we were given free with a mobile phone purchase a few years ago picks it up perfectly, just audio only...

Never thought of trying Rushmere... Will investigate further!

PyeContinental · 20-11-2009 1:20pm

Paddy C wrote: »

I have Windows 7 and a Hauppauge HVR4000.

That's what I have and it works great. Are you getting nothing at all with this or just audio? What are you connecting to your HVR 4000, to receive?

Rick_ · 20-11-2009 1:37pm

I'm not even getting audio, but when I am setting up the guide the first thing it asks me is where I live and it has pre-selected UK and then asks for my postcode, I presume from there Microsoft has a database of which 6 MUX frequencies to scan for my area which is why I get Freeview and nothing more. Maybe if I went to other and didn't put in a post code it would do a full scan of the spectrum and I might pick something up that way?

Is there no way in Media Centre to do a manual DTT scan on a particular frequency? I don't want to lose my channel order and customisations again just to add 4 channels. Such a pain that everything is re-added if you set up your signal again.

I have the aerial and satellite connected to the NVR4000. Microsoft's satellite database is horribly out of date though, many FTA channels and transponders are not there or have the wrong frequencies so even after a lenghty scan I have to spend another 20 minutes tuning other channels in that should have been there from the start.... :rolleyes:

PyeContinental · 20-11-2009 1:54pm

Paddy C wrote: »

I'm not even getting audio, but when I am setting up the guide the first thing it asks me is where I live and it has pre-selected UK and then asks for my postcode, I presume from there Microsoft has a database of which 6 MUX frequencies to scan for my area which is why I get Freeview and nothing more. Maybe if I went to other and didn't put in a post code it would do a full scan of the spectrum and I might pick something up that way?

Is there no way in Media Centre to do a manual DTT scan on a particular frequency? I don't want to lose my channel order and customisations again just to add 4 channels. Such a pain that everything is re-added if you set up your signal again.

I have the aerial and satellite connected to the NVR4000. Microsoft's satellite database is horribly out of date though, many FTA channels and transponders are not there or have the wrong frequencies so even after a lenghty scan I have to spend another 20 minutes tuning other channels in that should have been there from the start.... :rolleyes:

From what I can see, the satellite tuning is done by a database of known channels, whereas the DVB-T tuning is done by actually tuning to each channel and seeing what's there.

You can do a rescan for more channels on DVB-T only and it will add any new channels found. If you are picking up the UK channels, then you have a UHF aerial pointed at a UK transmitter. It's possible even with this setup to still pickup the Irish channels if the signal is very strong, but I suspect that the solution to your problem is to find out where your Irish transmitter is and point an aerial at that too. You'll need to add another DVB-T tuner to your media center pc unless you want to have to swap the aerial feeds (not very practical) or combine the feeds but this will exacerbate co-channel interference problems (effectively wipe out the UK DTT channels that broadcast on the same frequencies).

By the way, if you are receiving the freesat channels, what do you need the uk DVB-T channels for? Is it just the Virgin and Dave channels, Fiver and Five US, Quest and Yesterday? If so, you're in the same situation as me!

Sagem IDT81-SD picnic box

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