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RTE Announce FTA Saorsat service

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Comments

  • #92
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    mike65 wrote: »
    Pretty sure the blue spot below the orange one in the NW covers Ireland.
    No. See edit on previous post.

    South West of NI is covered
    With a larger dish, more of NI and I.O.M. can get it.

    With a 1m dish or larger, small parts of Cornwall, Devon Wales, maybe bits of Somerset. Rest of UK no chance due to combination of beam size and frequency reuse. The same freq spot is France to edge of Channel. So as you move to Devon, south east wales etc, a larger dish is no use as the signal is destroyed by French Spot.

    120204.png
    Orange line at North East is estimate of 1m dish
    Red line is around absolute limit. French spot reception too strong
    Amazingly no matter HOW big your dish is, the French spot limits overspill to be similar to Terrestrial. The Exception is N.I. as they are far from any other spot of same frequency. It's likely that in Portrush/Larne a 43cm will work in clear sky and 95cm dish in rain.


  • #93
    simonckenyon
    Registered Users Posts: 68 ✭✭simonckenyon


    Tony wrote: »
    Yep 9e and 28 is a non runner in my opinion.

    i was planning to get one. seems like there is more reason now to do so.


  • #94
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    A 90cm will be tricky to align on Ka (like 1.4m to 1.6m on Ku). For Wind loading and not loosing signal in gusts I would stick to a T55 (55cm Wavefrontier).


  • #95
    mrdtv2010
    Registered Users Posts: 556 ✭✭✭mrdtv2010


    Sky will kill this before it ever literally gets off the launch pad. They'll offer a Freesat from Sky Ireland card offer with RTE to lock you into 28.2E. End of commercial prospects for Saorsat.

    Also Sky boxes are disabled for DISEQ, other satellites (ever tried it on Astra 19.2 FTA HD channels such as ARD & ZDF), LNB loopthrough etc.

    As to Ka band its new technology, high receiver costs, and the issue of rain fades with Ka band is highly pertinent in a temperate climate like Ireland. The user inconvenience would be enormous: a) two dishes, b) two receivers c) two EPGs d) two remotes. It won't happen if Sky move quickly which they will: they'll come back with a Freesat from Sky counter offer.

    In France TNTSAT uses standard DVB-S2 Ku band technology and FTV Viaaccess cards. Simple really and on the same satellite as Canal+: how convenient is that?

    Like their DTT strategy RTE's Saorsat looks decidely unrealistic and completely driven by technology rather than consumer convenience.


  • #96
    STB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,178 ✭✭✭STB


    watty wrote: »
    We know:
    • Ka Band (Thus 100% DVB-S2, i.e. HD boxes only, even for SD TV)
    • Ireland spot beam
    • €1.5M per annum (i.e. sat with lot of space as that's cheap for 9 Channels)
    • Q2 2011 Service start
    Sats are ordered years before launch and only military ones are secret. Both makers, Operators and launch operators boast for years in advance.

    AFAIK none of the Ka in service have Irish Spot beam
    The only two services likely by ANY date before 2012 is Avanti Hylas and Eutelsat kasat. (aka ka-sat and "Ka Sat" on searches).

    For various reasons Hylas is unlikely and not likely to have a narrow enough spot. I'd also expect it to be cheaper :)


    So that leaves Eutelsat's Kasat at 9E the only known candidate.
    Details
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=66914176&postcount=72
    Beams
    500px-KA-SAT_spot_beams_coverage.jpg
    Not sure exactly which spot as it's hard to see outline of Ireland.

    In fact when he said FTA and Spot Irish beam I knew it had to be a Future Ka band launch (mentioned at start of thread).

    If he said "Ka Sat" that is official Eutelsat name. If he said Ka Band, that's generic?
    Which did he say to the committee?

    Yes Watty it has to be 9E. Proton launch later in the year (November).


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  • #97
    Tony
    Registered Users Posts: 11,325 ✭✭✭✭Tony


    mrdtv2010 wrote: »
    Like their DTT strategy RTE's Saorsat looks decidely unrealistic and completely driven by technology rather than consumer convenience.

    I must agree with that point

    Desktop PC Boards discount code on https://www.satellite.ie/ is boards.ie



  • #98
    Tony
    Registered Users Posts: 11,325 ✭✭✭✭Tony


    simonckenyon wrote: »
    i was planning to get one. seems like there is more reason now to do so.

    I guess there is if 9E is indeed the satellite as Watty as speculated.

    My comment you quoted though was meant as a commercial judgement. I dont see mass market appeal viz a wave runner dish v small DTT aerial on cost and appearance grounds.

    Desktop PC Boards discount code on https://www.satellite.ie/ is boards.ie



  • #99
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    mrdtv2010 wrote: »

    Like their DTT strategy RTE's Saorsat looks decidely unrealistic and completely driven by technology rather than consumer convenience.

    Like the original Sky deal, it's driven by cost. This simply means they save annually the running cost of loads of small DTT fill in at lower cost of 1.5M and save €50M+ maybe on rollout of fill in sites.

    France is big so a FTV card is cheaper solution. FTA on Ku Sat and especially 28.2 isn't feasible financially.

    This is a complementary service. It's a bit inconvenient if you want "foreign" TV :) but I'm sure we will figure out a cheap solution (to have Freesat on same dish), which will be better than pesky expensive CAMs and cards.

    FTV cards of course don't protect rights, that's an illusion. This isn't much fun for Irish people in UK, like FTV cards would be, that's for sure.


    Edit

    One of these "flat" rear feed 44cm dishes should work good for Kasat @ 9E when launched. Very discreet and similar to Broadband Fixed Wireless. (I use one for terrestrial Fixed Wireless!).
    http://www.hm-sat-shop.de/antennen-diverse/megasat-sd-flat-440-flachantenne.html
    Possibly evade "2nd dish needs planning permission" rules.
    I shall see how it can be combined with a 50cm to 65cm dish for sky.


  • #100
    marclt
    Registered Users Posts: 844 ✭✭✭marclt


    And the south western tip of Kerry is outside the initial coverage area, marginally I see - but still.

    Really is this going to be cost effective? How much are the receivers going to be and the cost of installation of equipment. RTE have kept this so quiet, you'd have thought they had just dreamt it up in the last few weeks.

    NOTHING on their website, in fact unless that new woman in charge of DSO gets her arse into gear fast, this is going to be a huge mess. Oh hang on, she isn't in post yet! D'oh!


  • #101
    Mr McBoatface
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,579 ✭✭✭Mr McBoatface


    mrdtv2010 wrote: »
    Sky will kill this before it ever literally gets off the launch pad. They'll offer a Freesat from Sky Ireland card offer with RTE to lock you into 28.2E........

    It won't happen if Sky move quickly which they will: they'll come back with a Freesat from Sky counter offer.

    I wonder if there is any chances of this being a ruse by RTE to make Sky implement such a scheme, that would probably suit RTE too ....

    Nah ... what was I thinking ... that would involve somebody with smarts thinking way outside the box. Not going to happen in RTE:D


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  • #102
    Tony
    Registered Users Posts: 11,325 ✭✭✭✭Tony


    marclt wrote: »
    How much are the receivers going to be

    Same price as they are now although Watty reckons you need a HD receiver. If the correct lnb is fitted the receiver will not see any difference between KU and KA band.

    Desktop PC Boards discount code on https://www.satellite.ie/ is boards.ie



  • #103
    warlikedave
    Registered Users Posts: 1,529 ✭✭✭warlikedave


    with all this narrow beam satillite tech coming online - will this kill off the wide beam astra 1 sevices may i ask? is it the future to localise sat beams and prevent people from watching channels from all over the continent so we are stuck witha narrow Ku beam with certain channels?

    I hope this is not the way sat is going - cutting off and replacing wide band sats for local sat services only! :mad:

    still I think sky will step in - in regards to RTE - surely it would make sence to utilise a service already in place and broadcasting on astra 2


  • #104
    pa990
    Registered Users Posts: 3,884 ✭✭✭pa990


    watty wrote: »
    Yes Minstrel27,

    That's why I wonder if they mean kasat @13E which is due to launch Sept/Oct 2010

    KA-SAT_spot_beams_coverage.jpg

    [/LIST]

    looks like someone spilled a packet of smarties over the map


  • #105
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    warlikedave wrote: »
    with all this narrow beam satillite tech coming online - will this kill off the wide beam astra 1 sevices may i ask? is it the future to localise sat beams and prevent people from watching channels from all over the continent so we are stuck with a narrow Ku beam with certain channels?

    I hope this is not the way sat is going - cutting off and replacing wide band sats for local sat services only! ...

    Yes. That is the eventual intention. but only as satellites reach end of life. It increases the capacity for SAME satellite slot by up to 200x eventually, so as well as making FTV cards obsolete, it means many more channels can be carried and all HD or even Stereoscopic and Progressive (x4 bandwidth needed).


  • #106
    STB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,178 ✭✭✭STB


    mrdtv2010 wrote: »
    Also Sky boxes are disabled for DISEQ, other satellites (ever tried it on Astra 19.2 FTA HD channels such as ARD & ZDF), LNB loopthrough etc.
    You seem to be under the impression that people with Sky receivers would want to add RTE on another Sat. People who have Sky receivers normally subscribe to Sky and get RTE as FTV.
    mrdtv2010 wrote: »
    As to Ka band its new technology, high receiver costs, and the issue of rain fades with Ka band is highly pertinent in a temperate climate like Ireland. The user inconvenience would be enormous: a) two dishes, b) two receivers c) two EPGs d) two remotes. It won't happen if Sky move quickly which they will: they'll come back with a Freesat from Sky counter offer.

    Nonsense. A Combo HD Box that does all three is €169. ONE REMOTE. NO BILLS from Sky.
    mrdtv2010 wrote: »
    Like their DTT strategy RTE's Saorsat looks decidely unrealistic and completely driven by technology rather than consumer convenience.

    Actually its probably driven by a statutory remit to provide Free to Air coverage rather than Free to View. I think this is the first satelitte to come on stream that actually is narrowband for Ireland and is therefore the first time the opportunity has presented itself.


  • #107
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    It's not really. The coverage isn't a sharp on/off. Heavy rain in Athlone will be much worse. I explained the coverage, rain fade and dish sizes earlier.

    It's a very cheap solution.
    • small dish
    • slightly more expensive LNBF
    • No CAM, no Card, No expensive EPG charges (same middleware).
    • Any existing FTA DVB-s2 receiver (bascally any HD FTA sat box) as long as not worried about EPG. A freesat HD receiver will work.
    • Only 1.5M a year for 9 TV Channels and all major Radio. A tiny fraction of 28.2 carriage costs for mix 9 TV inc HD +radio, never mind EPG
    • back up feed for main TX sites without a pesky Skybox and subscription!

    Of course it doesn't exist until a successful launch and commissioning. This means there is really no major customer for "Real Digital TV" platform FTV card idea. But it's possible the Real TV consortium will launch on this with extra channels rather than on Sky as they have had more market response here than in UK.


  • #108
    John mac
    Registered Users Posts: 5,107 ✭✭✭John mac


    He didn't mention anything about satellite, (just now on Matt Cooper) ...The Minister..


  • #109
    byrnefm
    Registered Users Posts: 887 ✭✭✭byrnefm


    Forgive me if this has been answered already - but why are they using Ka band instead of Ku band? Aren't most services that are on satellite in Europe (13E, 19E, 28.2E) all Ku band?

    Just curious...


  • #110
    Tony
    Registered Users Posts: 11,325 ✭✭✭✭Tony


    To get around the programme rights issue

    byrnefm wrote: »
    Forgive me if this has been answered already - but why are they using Ka band instead of Ku band? Aren't most services that are on satellite in Europe (13E, 19E, 28.2E) all Ku band?

    Just curious...

    Desktop PC Boards discount code on https://www.satellite.ie/ is boards.ie



  • #111
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    And it's cheap as sat capacity is nearly 1000 times older ones and about 160 times newer sats.


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  • #112
    warlikedave
    Registered Users Posts: 1,529 ✭✭✭warlikedave


    watty wrote: »
    Yes. That is the eventual intention. but only as satellites reach end of life. It increases the capacity for SAME satellite slot by up to 200x eventually, so as well as making FTV cards obsolete, it means many more channels can be carried and all HD or even Stereoscopic and Progressive (x4 bandwidth needed).

    So what will happen to someone like myself who watches multiple stations on astra 19.2e? I will be jsut left with what we in ireland can pick up off a couple of narrow beams?

    its madness in my regard - it may be better quality but it limits channels viewed and we become more reliant on local providers for shows instead of being able to look through a load of channels from across europe :mad:

    I watch more stuff from germany than i do from irish providers - so much for having FTA from across europe with that - unless they rebroadcast all the free to air channels from different regions in each hot spot/narrow beam to garentee that we still recieve services from other regions

    still that would leave tehm open to program backing out as well since each beam is region specific?

    I dont like this concept for all its quality in terms of picture if the services are limited to local broadcasters :mad:


  • #113
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    Reminds me of the days when there was only 1/3 earth coverage C band and people complaining about Ku Band...

    Or even earlier when the 870MHz Russian Satellite TV for India was ending (could be received in UK!).


  • #114
    Tony
    Registered Users Posts: 11,325 ✭✭✭✭Tony


    Its been a great thread but I think it wise to stick to RTE Saorsat. The general future of satellite is for another day (or thread ) in my humble opinion.

    Desktop PC Boards discount code on https://www.satellite.ie/ is boards.ie



  • #115
    slegs
    Registered Users Posts: 3,004 ✭✭✭slegs


    warlikedave wrote: »
    So what will happen to someone like myself who watches multiple stations on astra 19.2e? I will be jsut left with what we in ireland can pick up off a couple of narrow beams?

    its madness in my regard - it may be better quality but it limits channels viewed and we become more reliant on local providers for shows instead of being able to look through a load of channels from across europe :mad:

    I watch more stuff from germany than i do from irish providers - so much for having FTA from across europe with that - unless they rebroadcast all the free to air channels from different regions in each hot spot/narrow beam to garentee that we still recieve services from other regions

    still that would leave tehm open to program backing out as well since each beam is region specific?

    I dont like this concept for all its quality in terms of picture if the services are limited to local broadcasters :mad:

    Problem is you are in a small minority. Viable FTA TV services limited to Ireland (or UK) with cheap transmission capability means more real competition and higher quality than exists today. That is good for the vast majority of people.


  • #116
    Propellerhead
    Closed Accounts Posts: 394 ✭✭Propellerhead


    I've come to expect mind boggling stupidity from our state sector and this is no exception. For example we already have the Integrated Ticketing project reinventing the wheel for the last seven years and we still have to get individual Dublin Bus, Luas and Irish Rail bits of electronic plastic.

    RTE yet again reinvent the wheel. They must be a bit in love with themselves in Montrose. Who in the name of sanity will go to the bother of buying bespoke non-standard new kit for a narrow channel choice?

    This is nuttier than a fruit and nut bar but with far less pleasure in it.

    Obviously three things (at least) have made this come to pass.

    1. Montrose techies love playing with technology as long as no nasty English language but foreign channels can butt in. Witness the stillbirth of DAB here.

    2. RTE really don't want to annoy Sky. For whatever reason.

    3. RTE and the Department want to be seen to be doing something to facilitate analogue switchoff, no matter how ridiculous it is.


  • #117
    Bob the Seducer
    Registered Users Posts: 1,178 ✭✭✭Bob the Seducer


    galtee boy wrote: »
    They listed the nine channels. Did anybody see the bit where they did this ? Curiosity is killing me ! We can speculate all we like, but this was from the " horses" mouth.

    The "9" channels as listed by Conor Hayes RTÉ Chief Financial Officer:

    (1) RTÉ 1
    (2) RTÉ 2
    (HD light - sports) DTT only
    (3) TV3
    (4) TG4
    (5) RTÉ News Now
    (6),(7)&(8) Mixed Stream: Euronews (night), RTÉ Childrens (ad free) (daytime) and RTÉ 1 +1 (evening)
    (9) 3e

    RTÉ Digital Teletext

    12 RTÉ Digital Radio Channels


  • #118
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    So 6.5 channels really...


  • #119
    slegs
    Registered Users Posts: 3,004 ✭✭✭slegs


    That is one mux isnt it?

    The second mux is next year...


  • #120
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    Propellerhead wrote: »
    RTE yet again reinvent the wheel. They must be a bit in love with themselves in Montrose. Who in the name of sanity will go to the bother of buying bespoke non-standard new kit for a narrow channel choice?

    This is nuttier than a fruit and nut bar but with far less pleasure in it.

    There is but ONE reason for this.

    It's not for people that love Freesat or dishes. It's for people that can't get DTT. Because the fact that officials won't publicly admit is that UHF TV has never been properly rolled out.

    Analogue is going to be turned off.

    The cost of going from 90% coverage to 95% is nearly as high again. We will never see the level of DTT coverage the UK is planning for (99%+) and THEY decided Freesat is a MUST HAVE for the last 1%. FTA on 28.2 is simply not an Irish option.

    1% is about 8,000 rural households.
    We can't afford even 96% coverage.

    This will give the 2% to 7% that get no DTT or poor DTT all the IrishTV and and all the main Radio including the DAB stations (maybe 5% to 10% won't get DAB either).

    This is to extend DTT coverage. Very cheaply (€1.5M). I hope the Satellite launches OK and works. Or a lot of people will only have RTE, TG4 and TV3 by paying Sky another €24M out of Ireland a year on the €500M a year Sky already get.

    This is not an RTE International Service. The fact that everyone on the Island can actually get this for Free is a bonus. It's the Rural Digital TV repeater. :) Unlike the NBS, this should work.


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  • #121
    warlikedave
    Registered Users Posts: 1,529 ✭✭✭warlikedave


    good point - im jsut not all that entheusiastic about the doing away of a wide foot print satillite system :D:D but i am biased due to my tv habits :P


This discussion has been closed.
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