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A Mere Mention of Abortion.

  • 22-02-2012 1:37am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,091 ✭✭✭


    I'm posting this in the Ladies Lounge because I want a female perspective on this.

    Now I'm respectful of all choices in life, but I really don't understand how other people can't be.

    Why is it the mere mention of abortion ends with some people just totally loosing it? I know it's a sensitive subject, and if you don't agree with it then fine.

    I have a friend who considered, but didn't have an abortion. She lost the baby at 13 weeks, and one of her friends who knew that she had considered it and is very pro life told her it was karma, and that she deserved to loose it, and that she and her bf were murderers.

    I have had people in real life and on this forum jump down my throat because I believe that abortion should be legalised in this country and that every woman should have the right to it if she wants to. I believe that is traumatic as an experience, made all the more so because you can never tell anyone what you went through, and you have to travel out of the country for it.

    I'm just wondering, what would you say if you met someone who openly told you she had an abortion because she wasn't capable of raising a child and didn't want to give up her job, education, etc? Would you think she was a horrible person? Or would you be able to look past her actions and not judge her on it?


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Comments

  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    I'm posting this in the Ladies Lounge because I want a female perspective on this.

    Now I'm respectful of all choices in life, but I really don't understand how other people can't be.

    Why is it the mere mention of abortion ends with some people just totally loosing it? I know it's a sensitive subject, and if you don't agree with it then fine.

    I have a friend who considered, but didn't have an abortion. She lost the baby at 13 weeks, and one of her friends who knew that she had considered it and is very pro life told her it was karma, and that she deserved to loose it, and that she and her bf were murderers.

    I have had people in real life and on this forum jump down my throat because I believe that abortion should be legalised in this country and that every woman should have the right to it if she wants to. I believe that is traumatic as an experience, made all the more so because you can never tell anyone what you went through, and you have to travel out of the country for it.

    I'm just wondering, what would you say if you met someone who openly told you she had an abortion because she wasn't capable of raising a child and didn't want to give up her job, education, etc? Would you think she was a horrible person? Or would you be able to look past her actions and not judge her on it?

    I have met many women who for various reasons had abortions. I can't say the knowledge ever changed my view of them. I personally wouldn't have an abortion but I support the right to choose and it is not my place to judge.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,115 ✭✭✭✭Nervous Wreck


    Personally, I think pro-lifers are scum and have eradicated them from my circle of friends. Someone asked me to sign a pro-life petition on the street the other day and the only thing that stopped me from spitting in his face was that I wasn't alone.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,091 ✭✭✭hattoncracker


    Personally, I think pro-lifers are scum and have eradicated them from my circle of friends. Someone asked me to sign a pro-life petition on the street the other day and the only thing that stopped me from spitting in his face was that I wasn't alone.

    Yeah.. Life isn't as black and white as they make it out to be. They make it seem like such an easy thing to just carry a baby to term and give it up for adoption. Women with unwanted pregnancies shouldn't be seen as an incubator.


  • Registered Users Posts: 118 ✭✭jay phelan


    Everyone has the right to decide what they want to do with their body. Although I don't like the idea of abortion myself as long as it's not my own child then each to their own.

    I think that in some cases abortion should be legalized, such as a victim of rape becomes pregnant with the rapists baby. That's a tough situation there and very understandable why a women would like to abort. Of course there's other situations out there and people should have the right to decide what would be best for them.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,713 ✭✭✭✭Novella


    Yeah.. Life isn't as black and white as they make it out to be. They make it seem like such an easy thing to just carry a baby to term and give it up for adoption. Women with unwanted pregnancies shouldn't be seen as an incubator.

    While personally I am pro-choice, I don't think there's any point arguing about abortion tbh. It has been done to death and realistically, no matter how much thought behind your belief, no matter how well-written your post, you're not gonna change somebody else's mind. And that's okay. Well, I think it's okay.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭Einhard


    Personally, I think pro-lifers are scum and have eradicated them from my circle of friends. Someone asked me to sign a pro-life petition on the street the other day and the only thing that stopped me from spitting in his face was that I wasn't alone.

    With such an intolerant, entirely close minded, and borderline violent attitude like that, I imagine your circle of friends was fairly small to begin with.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭Einhard


    hattoncracker...you claim that you're respectful of all positions in life, and yet another poster claims to want to spit in the faces of pro-lifers, and you thank the post. Doesn't sound like you're all that respectful and open to me. It seems that hysterical antagonism isn't just confined to the loony fringes of the pro-life movement.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,091 ✭✭✭hattoncracker


    Einhard wrote: »
    hattoncracker...you claim that you're respectful of all positions in life, and yet another poster claims to want to spit in the faces of pro-lifers, and you thank the post. Doesn't sound like you're all that respectful and open to me. It seems that hysterical antagonism isn't just confined to the loony fringes of the pro-life movement.


    Thats her opinion.. I agree with it to an extent. But I would never spit in someones face. Im a huge believer in the right to free speech, but thats not what im asking here. Im not asking people for that, I'm asking what you would say if someone told you they'd had one. Would that change your opinion of them, or of abortion?


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭Einhard


    Thats her opinion.. I agree with it to an extent. But I would never spit in someones face. Im a huge believer in the right to free speech, but thats not what im asking here. Im not asking people for that, I'm asking what you would say if someone told you they'd had one. Would that change your opinion of them, or of abortion?

    I don't believe that abortion should be freely available. Yes, it should be an option when the life or health of the mother is threatened, but not otherwise.

    That said, I'm not a zealot on the matter. I know people who have had abortions. They were kind, loving people before they had the procedure, and they were kind, loving people after they had the procedure. I was disappointed they had it, but it didn't change my opinion of them. I certainly didn't want to "eradicate" them from my circle of friends or wish to spit in their face.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,115 ✭✭✭✭Nervous Wreck


    Einhard wrote: »
    With such an intolerant, entirely close minded, and borderline violent attitude like that, I imagine your circle of friends was fairly small to begin with.

    I am completely intolerant of people wanting to have a control over what women do with their own bodies, yes.

    Thats her opinion.. I agree with it to an extent.

    His. ;)


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  • Registered Users Posts: 600 ✭✭✭Mollikins


    I don’t have much of a problem with abortion itself. I don’t agree with it but at the same time I don’t think I’d judge someone else for having one. It’s not a decision a woman takes lightly and it’s likely she has a very good reason for doing so. But what I do have a problem with is women using it as a method of contraception. It’s on the increase and it’s very disturbing to hear of such stories.

    Also the 24 week cut off point needs to be revised. So many babies are being born earlier and earlier and surviving thanks to advances in medicine. I know of 2 babies born severely premature (23 and 26 weeks) that are getting stronger everyday and are most definitely going to survive. The little baby born at 23 weeks legally could have been aborted if that was his mothers wish. And that is so incredibly wrong. :(


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭Einhard


    I am completely intolerant of people wanting to have a control over what women do with their own bodies, yes.

    It's all too easy to paint any contrary view as being fundamentalist and essentially misogynistic. Ironically, when you do so, you come across as just as intolerant and small minded as the people you rail against.

    It's funny that in a thread started to discuss the hatefulness of pro-life loonies, you are the one who comes across as most full of bile.

    I suppose I should be glad that the internet allows people to state a position without being spat on by people like you.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,091 ✭✭✭hattoncracker


    Einhard wrote: »
    With such an intolerant, entirely close minded, and borderline violent attitude like that, I imagine your circle of friends was fairly small to begin with.

    I am completely intolerant of people wanting to have a control over what women do with their own bodies, yes.

    Thats her opinion.. I agree with it to an extent.

    His. ;)

    My apologies..


    And once and for all, this Is thread on how you would feel if someone you know had one and told you about it.. Its not about pro-lifers, abortion views, but it Is about how you view someone after the decision had been made and the deed had been done..


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 23,316 ✭✭✭✭amacachi


    Einhard wrote: »
    It's all too easy to paint any contrary view as being fundamentalist and essentially misogynistic. Ironically, when you do so, you come across as just as intolerant and small minded as the people you rail against.

    That's exactly why any attempt at discussion about abortion (and some other topics) always descend into the exact same kind of shouting match.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,115 ✭✭✭✭Nervous Wreck


    Einhard wrote: »
    It's all too easy to paint any contrary view as being fundamentalist and essentially misogynistic.

    Even easier when it's true, tbf.

    Anyway, as per this:

    Im not asking people for that, I'm asking what you would say if someone told you they'd had one. Would that change your opinion of them, or of abortion?

    We've gone wildly off topic.

    To answer your question, OP, I have at least one friend who's had an abortion and it didn't change anything about my opinion of her cos it's none of my business. Apologies for derailing, I'm off!


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭Einhard


    My apologies..


    And once and for all, this Is thread on how you would feel if someone you know had one and told you about it.. Its not about pro-lifers, abortion views, but it Is about how you view someone after the decision had been made and the deed had been done..

    Well, as I said, I've been in that situation, and when asked for my opinion I gave it honestly- I didn't agree with their choice. My opinion of the persons didn't change because of their decision, and the thought that someone would react as that woman (karma etc) you referred to in your post is abhorrent.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,145 ✭✭✭✭MrStuffins


    Einhard wrote: »
    Well, as I said, I've been in that situation, and when asked for my opinion I gave it honestly- I didn't agree with their choice. My opinion of the persons didn't change because of their decision, and the thought that someone would react as that woman (karma etc) you referred to in your post is abhorrent.

    May I ask why it is exactly you don't think a woman should be allowed terminate her pregnancy?


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,090 ✭✭✭jill_valentine


    Wouldn't change my opinion of somebody. I don't think I'd have one personally, but I am very fiercely pro choice.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭Einhard


    MrStuffins wrote: »
    May I ask why it is exactly you don't think a woman should be allowed terminate her pregnancy?

    You can but a response would drag the thread even further off topic.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,145 ✭✭✭✭MrStuffins


    When I was younger, my best friend and his girlfriend at the time found themselves in the situation where she was a few weeks pregnant and they were both young, dumb and unemployed. There was also other big reasons which I won't go into here. After A LOT of soul searching, they decided they couldn't have the child so decided to have an abortion.

    So, they travelled, the abortion was performed, and they came back. it was a tough thing to go through but they kept it secret, from everybody. The only person who knew was me as I was his best mate and I was very very close to them as a couple as well. I was also there throughout the whole process of their decision as to what they should do.

    So, after a while we're all out and about having a few drinks and the girl decided she needs to tell somebody. SO she tells her best mate.

    Her reaction was incredible! This girl who had been her best mate since they were kids flipped out. She NEVER asked about the circumstances, she didn't care about her mate, it was like a switch was flipped and she started screaming calling her "A murdering bitch" etc. it was like she was pre-programmed to say "Murder" when she heard the word "Abortion". They actually never spoke again.

    Some people will let their pre-conceived ideas about a certain subject ruin lifelong relationships! it's terrible :(


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 429 ✭✭johnners2981


    Einhard wrote: »
    You can but a response would drag the thread even further off topic.

    Ah go on


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,091 ✭✭✭hattoncracker


    MrStuffins wrote: »
    When I was younger, my best friend and his girlfriend at the time found themselves in the situation where she was a few weeks pregnant and they were both young, dumb and unemployed. There was also other big reasons which I won't go into here. After A LOT of soul searching, they decided they couldn't have the child so decided to have an abortion.

    So, they travelled, the abortion was performed, and they came back. it was a tough thing to go through but they kept it secret, from everybody. The only person who knew was me as I was his best mate and I was very very close to them as a couple as well. I was also there throughout the whole process of their decision as to what they should do.

    So, after a while we're all out and about having a few drinks and the girl decided she needs to tell somebody. SO she tells her best mate.

    Her reaction was incredible! This girl who had been her best mate since they were kids flipped out. She NEVER asked about the circumstances, she didn't care about her mate, it was like a switch was flipped and she started screaming calling her "A murdering bitch" etc. it was like she was pre-programmed to say "Murder" when she heard the word "Abortion". They actually never spoke again.

    Some people will let their pre-conceived ideas about a certain subject ruin lifelong relationships! it's terrible :(

    My friend is in a similar position, cant tell her best friend because she knows how she will be treated. Keeps it all in. Her bfs friends and family all know and are fine with it. Her mum knows and thats it, she's had to keep it from everyone.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭Einhard


    My friend is in a similar position, cant tell her best friend because she knows how she will be treated. Keeps it all in. Her bfs friends and family all know and are fine with it. Her mum knows and thats it, she's had to keep it from everyone.

    To be honest, if her best friend would react in that way, then she's not much of a friend.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,091 ✭✭✭hattoncracker


    Einhard wrote: »
    My friend is in a similar position, cant tell her best friend because she knows how she will be treated. Keeps it all in. Her bfs friends and family all know and are fine with it. Her mum knows and thats it, she's had to keep it from everyone.

    To be honest, if her best friend would react in that way, then she's not much of a friend.
    it's easy to say that but she's known the girl for 18 years..


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,145 ✭✭✭✭MrStuffins


    Einhard wrote: »
    To be honest, if her best friend would react in that way, then she's not much of a friend.

    Lazy stock answer! You haven't thought this statement through.

    You can have a best mate who you love but you just can't stand by through everything.

    Example: If i found out my mate was some sort of serious serious criminal guilty of heinous crimes, i'm not sure I could or should just forget that and blindly continue to stand by this person just because they are my "friend".

    The problem is, some people have been given this silly notion that terminating a pregnancy, no matter how far gone the mother might be, is equal to the murder of a human being.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭Einhard


    MrStuffins wrote: »
    Lazy stock answer! You haven't thought this statement through.

    You can have a best mate who you love but you just can't stand by through everything.

    Example: If i found out my mate was some sort of serious serious criminal guilty of heinous crimes, i'm not sure I could or should just forget that and blindly continue to stand by this person just because they are my "friend".

    The problem is, some people have been given this silly notion that terminating a pregnancy, no matter how far gone the mother might be, is equal to the murder of a human being.

    I think my comment was pretty reasonable given the circumstances. If you have a best friend that, on finding out that you had an abortion, resorts to abusing you and calling you a murderer, then you should probably think long and hard about that friendship. That kind of abuse shouldn't be acceptable from anyone, let alone a so-called best friend.

    Unless you think being harangued and called a murderer is a solid basis for friendship?

    Incidentally, just because you disagree with a point, doesn't make it "lazy" or knee jerk.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,145 ✭✭✭✭MrStuffins


    Einhard wrote: »
    I think my comment was pretty reasonable given the circumstances. If you have a best friend that, on finding out that you had an abortion, resorts to abusing you and calling you a murderer, then you should probably think long and hard about that friendship. That kind of abuse shouldn't be acceptable from anyone, let alone a so-called best friend.

    Sorry but this is another lazy stock answer. I'm not sure you're fully thinking through these scenarios!

    It's not a question of the friend failing to live up to their friendship duties, it's a case of ignorance of the part of the friend (no doubt fueled by pro-life rubbish) that having an abortion after a few weeks is equal to the murder of a human being.

    I mean, if it was a case that the girl had in fact murdered a small child, I don't think you'd be saying "Oh, well if her friend didn't stick by her even though she had murdered a small child then she's not a real friend and she shouldn't have to put up with her friend screaming at her".


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭Einhard


    it's easy to say that but she's known the girl for 18 years..

    Yeah, but of she's afraid to tell her friend, not because she's afraid that she'll simply disagree with her choice, but because she fears that her friend will abuse her, then I'd question whether the friendship is as solidly based as it might have appeared. To heap abuse on someone else is, in my opinion anyway, always wrong. I don't understand how strangers could react in such a mannerm let alone friends.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,145 ✭✭✭✭MrStuffins


    Einhard wrote: »
    Incidentally, just because you disagree with a point, doesn't make it "lazy" or knee jerk.

    I didn't see this edit until now.

    My disagreeing with the point is not the reason I think it's lazy. It's a stock answer. You aven't fully thought through the scenario IMO.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,091 ✭✭✭hattoncracker


    IMO friends are more ready to judge you.. They feel they've earned the right to after knowing you for so long. And some people think that their opinions in life will matter in a decision like this but at the end of the day, your friends will not be giving birth and bringing up your kid so their opinion is irrelevant in the decision making, but can make a world of difference afterwards.


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