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Comments

  • #32
    thetaxman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 53 ✭✭thetaxman


    So you believe in globalisation. Clearly you have no understanding of what it entails, or more likely you think that it you play the game it will favour you. You are only a pawn as is Oscarbravo, thinks he is a nazi dictator. Joke.


  • #33
    thetaxman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 53 ✭✭thetaxman


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    That article is about B2B technology. It's got nothing whatsoever to do with ordinary consumers. The extra charge is to encourage suppliers to adopt the technology - it's nothing more scary than barcoding products was.

    This article is about changing perceptions towards this technology. I don't know what viewpoint you are coming from. Do you think that if you are a good guy and toe the line you will get ahead. Are you on the square?


  • #34
    Mahatma coat
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,869 ✭✭✭Mahatma coat


    the technology is ready to be rolled out en-mass.

    They just need to change the public perceptions of it.


  • #35
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,657 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Mahatma coat wrote: »
    the technology is ready to be rolled out en-mass.

    They just need to change the public perceptions of it.
    Phone calls can be recorded. Internet traffic can be recorded. The govt already knows how much you earn. they can know what you spend on rent/mortgague through tax relief, flights / holidays you take through airport taxes, they could look your credit card details too.

    Most of us can be tracked to within a few meters at any time. So they can tell who you are with and who you may have met. And it didn't cost the government a penny and we willing carry the transmitters with us every day.

    So you have a second hand ready to go ? Just make sure you never use it near a CCTV camera or use your credit card in shop while the phone is on. Or ring anyone that they might have an interest in, because they they will have an interest in you too.


  • #36
    Run_to_da_hills
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭Run_to_da_hills


    This subject was discussed in the Christianity forum. 666 is coming.
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055122906&highlight=mark+beast

    The groundwork is in place, i.e. a global digital integrated network, biometric technology, RFID smart cards used in all aspects of transit from trams, trains, busses, passports, flights, toll plasa passes. The CCTV to enforce this system is now almost complete. With modern digital cameras that can pan tilt zoom and recognise biometric data. They are being placed throughout the city, public parks, car parks, shopping malls, lanes, trains busses etc. you cannot escape!

    Joseph Stalin and Adolf Hitler would have given their right arms to have such a global surveilance system that leaves a digital fingerprint on every single movement, phone call and purchase you make on this planet. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wszslxt9NLM


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  • #37
    Offalycool
    Closed Accounts Posts: 459 ✭✭Offalycool


    Very scary article here. The body of it is concerned with automated military hardware and the relevance of "military omniscience". I thought this quote might be of particular interest.
    Eight square miles of Jakarta have been digitised and simulated in three dimensions. That will not surprise computer gamers, but Urban Resolve goes much further: the detail extends to the interiors of 1.6 million buildings and even the cellars and sewers beneath, and it also includes no fewer than 109,000 moving vehicles and people. Even the daily rhythms of the city have been simulated. The roads, says one commentator, "are quiet at night, but during weekday rush hours they become clogged with traffic. People go to work, take lunch breaks and visit restaurants, banks and churches."

    Digitise any target city and integrate this with the flow of data from many thousands of sensors and cameras, stationary and mobile, and you have something far more powerful than the regular snapshots today's satellites can deliver. You have continuous coverage, around corners and through walls. You would never, for example, lose those mortar bombers who got out of their car and ran away.
    Link


  • #38
    Kernel
    Registered Users Posts: 4,388 ✭✭✭Kernel


    bonkey wrote: »
    Incidentally, chip implantation, like so much of the stupidity we see masquerading as security today won't help with security. It may, for a short period, make some people feel safer, but it won't make any real difference to security. Its just more of what Bruce Schneier refers to as "security theater".

    Of course it will help with security. If everyone is implanted with an rfid chip and is tracked 24/7, with movements stored on a central database, it makes it very difficult for a criminal to claim that they were not the ones who perpetrated a crime at xx time, on xx date at xx location. It's no more outlandish a thought than cameras monitoring your every move in the city centre was 40 years ago. ;)


  • #39
    CCCP^
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,749 ✭✭✭CCCP^


    It could happen, but I'm sure an Economist or such would say no. What would it achieve? See I have this belief that the world and its reality can be split into two camps. Camp A is a 1984-style outcome. The other is Camp B and that's A Brave New World. The world, well the western world, is more like A Brave New World, governments don't need to be clued in 100% to their people's movements - if they're not in work, they are buying stuff, having intercourse or alseep. Society's in the western world are passive and apathetic. They don't need to be monitored. That's my theory and im not drunk.


  • #40
    bonkey
    Registered Users Posts: 15,443 ✭✭✭✭bonkey


    Kernel wrote: »
    If everyone is implanted with an rfid chip and is tracked 24/7, with movements stored on a central database, it makes it very difficult for a criminal to claim that they were not the ones who perpetrated a crime at xx time, on xx date at xx location. It's no more outlandish a thought than cameras monitoring your every move in the city centre was 40 years ago. ;)

    Well, lets see.....

    If everyone was implanted, and if those implants were monitored 24/7, here's what I'd do:

    1) Go somewhere out of range / shielded against RFID tracking. This is trivial, given the nature of RFID and the distances over which it works (24/7 tracking, therefore, is an impossibility, wherein lies the complete failure of the system)

    2) Have my chip removed/shielded/disabled/broken, and potentially have a chip cloned from Joe Q Public put in instead.
    3) Commit crim
    4) Go somewhere out of range / shielded against RFID tracking
    5) Have my own chip re-inserted / unshielded / re-enabled.

    In the case where I simply had the chip broken, I'd leave it broken until such times as officials contacted me to tell me that my chip was broken, then I'd feign surprise and ask to have it repaired / replaced.

    Seriously....it offers nothing that straight-forward identity-theft cannot leverage. Indeed, if we become reliant on the chip content, then identity-theft becomes even more powerful as once you're chipped to appear as someone else, any crime you commit will be pinned on them.

    Now...if you happen to have a tamper-proof, infinite-range, unblockable, unbreakable RFID chip, then these problems become a bit harder to crack (but not impossible). On the other hand, we don't have such things, nor are we likely to (especially the "unblockable" and "unbreakable" bits.


  • #41
    Run_to_da_hills
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭Run_to_da_hills


    bonkey wrote: »
    Well, lets see.....

    If everyone was implanted, and if those implants were monitored 24/7, here's what I'd do:

    1) Go somewhere out of range / shielded against RFID tracking. This is trivial, given the nature of RFID and the distances over which it works (24/7 tracking, therefore, is an impossibility, wherein lies the complete failure of the system)

    2) Have my chip removed/shielded/disabled/broken, and potentially have a chip cloned from Joe Q Public put in instead.
    3) Commit crime
    4) Go somewhere out of range / shielded against RFID tracking
    5) Have my own chip re-inserted / unshielded / re-enabled.

    In the case where I simply had the chip broken, I'd leave it broken until such times as officials contacted me to tell me that my chip was broken, then I'd feign surprise and ask to have it repaired / replaced.

    Seriously....it offers nothing that straight-forward identity-theft cannot leverage. Indeed, if we become reliant on the chip content, then identity-theft becomes even more powerful as once you're chipped to appear as someone else, any crime you commit will be pinned on them.

    Now...if you happen to have a tamper-proof, infinite-range, unblockable, unbreakable RFID chip, then these problems become a bit harder to crack (but not impossible). On the other hand, we don't have such things, nor are we likely to (especially the "unblockable" and "unbreakable" bits.
    The most probable location of the chip will be in the right hand or forehead; this is the suitable place for several reasons.

    Most people are right handed.
    Dual biometric scanners can read your thumb print and RFID implant in the
    right hand simultaneously to counter fraud.
    Dual biometric readers that can read your retina and RFID implant in the
    forehead simultaneously to counter fraud.
    All Oyster card touch pads are on the right as you enter the turnstiles.
    Many Arabs would find it offensive to have an implant in their left hand.

    For the above reasons it would be no point in tampering with the chip. When you are allocated with the chip it is matched with your thumb print and retina details. Authorities can check your details they match the biometric data against the chip. You try tampering with it and every portal scanner you pass will trigger off alarm bells.


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  • #42
    bonkey
    Registered Users Posts: 15,443 ✭✭✭✭bonkey


    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    .
    Dual biometric scanners can read your thumb print and RFID implant in the
    right hand simultaneously to counter fraud.

    At which point, you've obviated the need for the RFID chip, because you're requiring physical interaction with a thumb-print reader.
    Its simpler and more secure to reference the thumb-print scanned against a central store, rather than in one carried on the person.
    Dual biometric readers that can read your retina and RFID implant in the
    forehead simultaneously to counter fraud.
    Again, if you're going to read someone's retina, its safer and more secure to compare against a central store.
    For the above reasons it would be no point in tampering with the chip.
    Of course there would.

    If you can create/hack a chip with your thumbprint, but someone else's name and address, then for any scan that compares what is read from your biometrics against what is on the chip, you pass the test.
    When you are allocated with the chip it is matched with your thumb print and retina details. Authorities can check your details they match the biometric data against the chip. You try tampering with it and every portal scanner you pass will trigger off alarm bells.
    If you leave your biometrics unchanged, and alter the details for name/address, then you automagically become someone else....unless the name, address etc. are also being pulled from a central database...at which point, the eye- or thumbprint- scan has already obviated the need for an RFID chip in the first place.

    There's a very simple comparison here...

    Imagine if all of your bank a/c details were stored on your bank card instead of in the bank.
    The ATM would read your card, check if the PIN was right, (based on whats on the card), check if the you had enough money for a withdrawal (based on whats on the card), and then give you the money if you said yes, updating the balance (on the card).

    What you are suggesting is that this would be as secure or more secure than the current system, where basically all that is stored is the a/c no. This is used to identify the bank & account to send a query to. This query, itself encrypted, says "here's the a/c no, a one-way-encryption of the PIN, and a withdrawal request. Is that ok". Now, there's nothing useful to hack/steal. You can't usefully modify the card, because you still need a PIN which isn't on it. You can change the bank/ac listed on it, but then you still need to know the PIN for the account you're trying to hack.

    RFID doesn't meaningfully add to security...because ultimately, you need to compare what is on it against a secure data store and against the carrier in order to trust its information...but if you have the secure data store and biometrics for the person carrying the chip, you don't need the chip in the first place.


  • #43
    Run_to_da_hills
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭Run_to_da_hills


    bonkey wrote: »
    At which point, you've obviated the need for the RFID chip, because you're requiring physical interaction with a thumb-print reader. Its simpler and more secure to reference the thumb-print scanned against a central store, rather than in one carried on the person. Again, if you're going to read someone's retina, its safer and more secure to compare against a central store.
    The thumb print or retna scan is only to link the identy of the person to the assigned chip. Both the implant chip and print could give the key number to access to the database. The advantage of the chip is that it can transmit data unknowingly to the person unlike the thumb print.
    bonkey wrote: »
    If you can create/hack a chip with your thumbprint, but someone else's name and address, then for any scan that compares what is read from your biometrics against what is on the chip, you pass the test. If you leave your biometrics unchanged, and alter the details for name/address, then you automagically become someone else....unless the name, address etc. are also being pulled from a central database...at which point, the eye- or thumbprint- scan has already obviated the need for an RFID chip in the first place.
    Dont forget the whole system is totalitarian, every country in the world is linked up via airports, RFID passport database, transit systems, If someone messes with the system they can be totally isolated from society and will incur severe penalties. No one with a chip is going to risk tampering with it unless they are locked out of the system over some offense .
    bonkey wrote: »
    There's a very simple comparison here...
    Imagine if all of your bank a/c details were stored on your bank card instead of in the bank. The ATM would read your card, check if the PIN was right, (based on whats on the card), check if the you had enough money for a withdrawal (based on whats on the card), and then give you the money if you said yes, updating the balance (on the card).

    What you are suggesting is that this would be as secure or more secure than the current system, where basically all that is stored is the a/c no. This is used to identify the bank & account to send a query to. This query, itself encrypted, says "here's the a/c no, a one-way-encryption of the PIN, and a withdrawal request. Is that ok". Now, there's nothing useful to hack/steal. You can't usefully modify the card, because you still need a PIN which isn't on it. You can change the bank/ac listed on it, but then you still need to know the PIN for the account you're trying to hack..
    The biochip-transponder consists of 4 parts, computer microchip, antenna coil, capacitor and glass capsule. It stores and update your financial, medical, demographic data, basically everything about you. 128 characters 40 words 6 lines. A hand-held scanner can activate the passive capacitor with 125 khz. Not very much data but plenty to access a database that has everything about you. The thumb print scan is just a fail safe "key" and an additional security measure. We now see more of them being used, Dell are fitting them as standard on many of their laptops, we will soon see them at ATMs, clock out machines, ignition switches for cars etc.
    bonkey wrote: »
    At which point, you've obviated the need for the RFID chip, because you're requiring physical interaction with a thumb-print reader. Its simpler and more secure to reference the thumb-print scanned against a central store, rather than in one carried on the person..
    My point being that whats stopping some back street surgery removing or tampering with an implant. With combined RFID/Thumb print scan they have one form of non positive ID and another form of positive id, combine them together and both of them are fool proof forms of non transferable ids.


  • #44
    rigormortis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 216 ✭✭rigormortis


    Run to da hills, you are correct in everything that you say. Bonkey "RFID will not add to security". Well if you overlook the fact that everyone and everything will be tracked at all times, then I suppose you have a case. This technology is being gradually introduced as we speak. In two years it will be common place unless people educate themselves.


  • #45
    bonkey
    Registered Users Posts: 15,443 ✭✭✭✭bonkey


    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    The thumb print or retna scan is only to link the identy of the person to the assigned chip. Both tre chip and print could give access to the database. The advantage of the chip is thaty it can transmit data that can be received unknowingly by passing scanners.
    And the disadvantage is that remote scanners have absolutely no way of knowing whether or not the information read off the chip matches the biometrics of the person in possession of that chip. The only way you can confirm that is to take the biometrics from that person....at which point having RFID gains you nothing.
    Dont forget the whole system is totalitarian, every country in the world is linked up via airports, RFID passport database, transit systems, If someone messes with the system they can be totally isolated from society and will incur severe penalties.
    Leave out RFID, work only with biometrics, and the same logic applies....except that there's less for the criminal to even try and mess with.
    With combined RFID/Thumb print scan they have one form of non positive ID and another form of positive id, combine them together and both of them are fool proof forms of non transferable ids.

    No. Combine them together, and at best you get exactly the same security as you get with the thumbprint alone.

    If you scan RFID remotely, you've no way of knowing that it matches the biometrics. Indeed, if you make this assumption, then you're less secure than if you had thumbprints alone, because RFID chips are easier to hack than thumbprints are to modify.

    If you read the biometrics and compare them only against the RFID, you've no way of knowing that the RFID hasn't been tampered with and isn't giving a different identity to match with the thumbprint.

    Consider a system where you have mandatory ID...like, say, France. Now...put biometrics onto the ID, in the form of an embedded chip, magnetic strip, or computer-optical-readable strip.

    This system is 100% as effective as what you propose in security terms, but offers the individual better protection against identity theft (as their ID cannot be read without them knowing), and better privacy (no-one can, for example, track movements). In short, it is a better solution all round.

    RFID brings nothing to the mix. Biometrics offer some capability of improving security, but storing the details (or the key to the details) on RFID only weakens the system, at the additional cost of a loss of privacy.


  • #46
    bonkey
    Registered Users Posts: 15,443 ✭✭✭✭bonkey


    rigormortis wrote: »
    Bonkey "RFID will not add to security". Well if you overlook the fact that everyone and everything will be tracked at all times, then I suppose you have a case.

    But everyone and everything won't be tracked at all times....and until its made a crime to not be trackable, it'll never happen. If you require everyone to be trackable, then you don't need embedded RFID in the first place...there's plenty of other ways to do it.
    This technology is being gradually introduced as we speak. In two years it will be common place unless people educate themselves.

    I agree entirely.

    People need to realise that its not - as we're told - a tradeoff between security and privacy and that sacrificing privacy does not automatically make one more secure.


  • #47
    bonkey
    Registered Users Posts: 15,443 ✭✭✭✭bonkey


    While checking up on some of this stuff, I happened across an interesting discussion on another site.

    Bruce Schneier was describing a possible alteration to the RFID-in-Passports-hooked-to-biometric-database idea that the US want to introduce.
    Basically, to "alleviate security concerns", the system was going to additionally have the following:

    1) The data on the RFID chip would be encrypted
    2) The data on the RFID chip could only be encrypted using a key which was encoded optically on the passport cover.

    Now...think about that for just a second...the only way to read the RFID data is to scan a portion of the physical passport. This, then, completely removes any security argument for having the information readable at a distance. You could ditch the RFID chip entirely and have the key to your actual biometrics database stored in the ssme optically-readable format.

    So again, its clear that the introduction of RFID in passports isn't about security. The same level of security can be obtained, with the same level of convenience, omitting the use of RFID entirely.

    So why use RFID? Because you can track the chip at a distance, even if you can't decode the data. And once the thing is scanned once, you have the ability to map the encoded data to a person, so you know who is who! Of course...you can only do that to the people who don't realise this and haven't (for example) wrapped their passport in some form of shielding...which of course anyone who doesn't want to be trackable will do....

    So Joe Q Public loses anonymity and privacy, while anyone who wants to (including criminals) can trivially get around the implications of carrying an RFID-chipped passport.

    The lack of additional security only supports the argument that RFID is being pushed for reasons other then security. The public are being conned into thinking that it makes them safer when it doesn't. Whatever security they get could be implemented without the loss of privacy inherent in RFID implementations. So in effect, people are trading privacy against, well, nothing.

    You want a conspiracy? Well, thats one right there. We must either believe that no-one in government can understand the fundamentals of security, or that they are knowingly putting forward systems to erode privacy for no additional security.


  • #48
    rigormortis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 216 ✭✭rigormortis


    So lets get this clear, Bonkey is against the government on RFID. There is a first time for everything.


  • #49
    bonkey
    Registered Users Posts: 15,443 ✭✭✭✭bonkey


    rigormortis wrote: »
    So lets get this clear, Bonkey is against the government on RFID.

    I'm against the introduction of RFID for the (claimed) purpose of increasing security.
    There is a first time for everything.
    This isn't one of them. You've based your beliefs on faulty research.


  • #50
    Diogenes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,701 ✭✭✭Diogenes


    rigormortis wrote: »
    So lets get this clear, Bonkey is against the government on RFID. There is a first time for everything.

    Wow for a poster with 34 points who's been on this forum for a good nine days you sure know so much about it's users, casey.


  • #51
    rigormortis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 216 ✭✭rigormortis


    bonkey wrote: »

    This isn't one of them. You've based your beliefs on faulty research.
    I am one of the few who appear to be against a survelliance society. If you were to believe the media, no one would leave their house, what with all those terrorists.


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  • #52
    rigormortis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 216 ✭✭rigormortis


    Truth published in a newspaper? Not often this happens.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/story/0,,2253033,00.html


  • #53
    humanji
    Registered Users Posts: 19,976 ✭✭✭✭humanji


    It's in a newspaper and therefore must be untrue. It's the NWO lying to you again!


  • #54
    Run_to_da_hills
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭Run_to_da_hills


    humanji wrote: »
    It's in a newspaper and therefore must be untrue. It's the NWO lying to you again!
    What NWO, who are they? :confused:


  • #55
    meglome
    Registered Users Posts: 7,980 ✭✭✭meglome


    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    What NWO, who are they? :confused:

    Our lords and masters who control everything seemingly. Would appear most unlikely but that doesn't seem to concern a lot of the posters in here.

    There seems to be a belief that us sceptics don't believe there's anything bad happening in the world that we should be worried about. That's simply not true. I'm sure we're worried about any number of different things, such as the passport chipping issue that bonkey mentions. What we're not going to do is get too excited about some implausible and often frankly ridiculous conspiracy which has no evidence to back it up.


  • #56
    humanji
    Registered Users Posts: 19,976 ✭✭✭✭humanji


    It's the New World Order, a supposed group that runs everything, is enslaving humanity, worships the devil, uses space lasers to destroy buildings, are really lizard men or are any perpetrator of the conspiracy de jour.

    Casey and many others claim that the NWO have 100% control over the media and so the media can't be trusted. Yet somehow this belief is completely ignored when a paper publishes something that agrees with them.


  • #57
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    humanji wrote: »
    Casey and many others claim that the NWO have 100% control over the media and so the media can't be trusted.
    We've just upped it to 110%.


  • #58
    Run_to_da_hills
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭Run_to_da_hills


    Interesting news, biometric fingerprinting to become manditory for anyone entering the EU, another step towards totalitarian controll and your "666" electronic passport. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7242386.stm


  • #59
    rigormortis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 216 ✭✭rigormortis


    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    Interesting news, biometric fingerprinting to become manditory for anyone entering the EU, another step towards totalitarian controll and your "666" electronic passport. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7242386.stm

    Yes, the people need to reject this invasion of privacy. Things are starting to get totally out of hand. Cashless society, RFID, biometrics, cctv, satellite tracking, police state. In ten years the world will be a living hell, and yet people just float along oblivious.

    Look at this joke;

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=514033&in_page_id=1770


  • #60
    Kernel
    Registered Users Posts: 4,388 ✭✭✭Kernel


    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    What NWO, who are they? :confused:

    Since nobody has given you a serious answer (I'm disappointed again guys!). The NWO is a system of control and direction for the planet. The term NWO is sometimes used to refer to the groups involved (or possibly the one group [illuminati] in control of the smaller groups). The smaller groups are the Trilateral Commission, Council on Foreign Relations (CFR), Bilderberg Group and some believe the Masons are in there too.

    Basically powerful elite from political, academic and industrial disciplines who have a vision of the future and an agenda to achieve it. Google it, the rabbit hole runs too deeply for a simple answer.

    EDIT: Ehhh.. NWO stands for New World Order (in case you didn't know that).


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  • #61
    Run_to_da_hills
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭Run_to_da_hills


    Kernel wrote: »
    Since nobody has given you a serious answer (I'm disappointed again guys!). The NWO is a system of control and direction for the planet. The term NWO is sometimes used to refer to the groups involved (or possibly the one group [illuminati] in control of the smaller groups). The smaller groups are the Trilateral Commission, Council on Foreign Relations (CFR), Bilderberg Group and some believe the Masons are in there too.

    Basically powerful elite from political, academic and industrial disciplines who have a vision of the future and an agenda to achieve it. Google it, the rabbit hole runs too deeply for a simple answer.

    EDIT: Ehhh.. NWO stands for New World Order (in case you didn't know that).
    I prefere not to use the term "New World Order", it is used too much by conspiracy theorists. :)
    rigormortis wrote: »
    Yes, the people need to reject this invasion of privacy. Things are starting to get totally out of hand. Cashless society, RFID, biometrics, cctv, satellite tracking, police state. In ten years the world will be a living hell, and yet people just float along oblivious.
    Our government's top leaders have sold us into financial and economic slavery. The problem is that people don't get angry enough to do something about it until they start losing their homes, their jobs and their freedoms. We are at that point now.


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