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The Irish suicide question

245

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  • #32
    the culture of deference
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,196 ✭✭✭the culture of deference


    When a 13 year old feels the need to kill herself then you know the government/school/social services do not work.

    kids get to spend 4-5 hours a week on religion in schools, when they could be dealing with much more important issues.

    I also wish there was a way of terminally ill people being able to switch bodies with those about to kill themselves.

    The media and social sites play a huge role too. I would like to see what % of suicides have been as a result of this.


  • #33
    crusher000
    Registered Users Posts: 649 ✭✭✭crusher000


    Maybe it's my perception but are some posters here actually
    trivialising suicide and depression. I'll get the whole freedom of speech thing and entitled to our opinions but I really can't understand the coldness of some people. Too much time in front of the screen i think. Some people do want to debate the issue of suicide seriuosly and I wish others would stay of this forum.


  • #34
    kylith
    Registered Users Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem. I would urge anyone who is contemplating it to call one of the helplines, the Samaritans, anyone and just talk about how they're feeling.

    I know someone who volunteers for the Samaritans and they said that every year there's a huge spike in young people who feel suicidal because of their exam results, and how their parents will react. I'm sure the parents don't mean to put that kind of pressure on their children, but that's how the kids feel about it.


  • #35
    Andy!!
    Site Banned Posts: 1,678 ✭✭✭Andy!!


    kylith wrote: »
    Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem.

    Such one-liner BS. I hate that line. Not only is it untrue, but it is very patronising.


  • #36
    lukesmom
    Registered Users Posts: 4,400 ✭✭✭lukesmom


    Trust me when I say it's not as easy as doing something to make yourself happy! Just came out of a depressive spell last week and it was horrendous. Not looking forward to the next one. Oh yeah the doctors in Ireland are completely unskilled in the area of mental health. When I first got depression it was 4 years ago. I didn't know what was happening to me but I was unravelling. I visited the doctors surgery 11 times in 3 weeks to see different doctors at the same practice, hoping one of them could magically cure me of this darkness engulfing me. I had in my possession 150 different tablets including ssri's (long term anti depressents), 4 different type of benzodiazepines including Valium and Xanax and 2 different types of sleeping tablets including rohypnol the date rape drug (which by the way was the only tablet to knock me put asleep after 9 days awake straight). I finally settled on an ssri and still on it.
    My point is that the doctors throw medication at you, no counselling suggested or offered I was just asked 'your not going to do anything stupid are you???
    Thank God I didn't. But I certainly wanted to and I often want to when I get my depression spells. Something stops me though so I'm lucky so far.
    I've 3 wonderful children, great husband and family etc. You would look at me and think no chance could I suffer depression but I do. This country is a joke when it comes to mental health it's time our doctors were better trained in this area, their hands are tied so it's time for a complete overhaul.
    P.s a permanent solution to a permanent problem is how a depressive feels when they are stuck in that black hole


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  • #37
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    I tried to take my own life a few years ago now.

    I look back at that time and I really can't see how I was ever in a place where I thought that was the best option but at the time I was a mess. When you are that low you don't really see things straight. I had been nagged for ages by my loved ones to get help but I had convinced myself I would have my kids taken off me, I don't know where I got that idea from but I felt if I told anyone how I felt I would be called an unfit mother and they would be put into care. I saw all those professionals who are there to help as the enemy.

    What worked for me was therapy but I had to go overseas to get it, even then I had to wait. It was the longest three months of my life. I was lucky enough to meet someone who had been through it who had come out the other side and I held onto that. It was a long road and I'm still having bad days but I think, I hope, I will be okay.

    Its important to know that depressed people aren't always crying, unable to get out of bed etc etc. I still got up, went to work, met my friends, had a laugh but it was all fake. No one could see how crap I felt or how much of an effort it took to do even small things most people take for granted. Someone can look okay but be dying inside.

    I don't really know what the point of this post is, I have no answers. I suppose its just to show you can be rock bottom and come back and be happy again.


  • #38
    Babooshka
    Registered Users Posts: 1,142 ✭✭✭Babooshka


    HeyThereDeliah wrote: »
    Where did I suggest that?

    Suicide is a personal choice and do we have the right to stop someone doing it? We can help, we can talk but have we the right to expect someone to go with what we want rather than what they want?

    You talk as though the person making the decision is in their rational decision making mind. They are in serious distress and in need of professional help. "Personal Choice" is a term used for deciding what car to buy, what to eat for lunch or what colour jeans to wear, not whether to check out or not. You could probably use the term personal choice for Euthanasia assisted suicide.

    When someone decides to end their life they believe there simply is no other choice, it's not "kill myself, or go to a movie"...it's a lot more complicated, and an extremely dark and horrible place to be in. I don't think they want their life to end, they want the pain they're in to end.


  • #39
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    People who are suicidal are ILL!!!! Pointing the finger is like blaming a disabled person for not making an effort to walk.


  • #40
    donegal_road
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,281 ✭✭✭donegal_road


    ASIST - Applied Suicide Intervention Skills Training

    The course trains people to recognise signs in people who are at immediate risk of suicide, and how to intervene.
    Most people thinking about suicide signal and share their pain - they offer us opportunities to respond.

    Suicide intervention training can help all of us see, hear and respond to these invitations.

    It is important to know what signs to look for if someone is in danger. A lot of it is common sense really


  • #41
    Drakares
    Registered Users Posts: 904 ✭✭✭Drakares


    I'm only 22 and I know 4 people who have committed suicide.

    One of them last week, was a lecturer of mine in Applied Statistics.

    What an absolute gent he was, and a genius.

    Hindsight is a terrible thing. I knew he was under pressure with his work and he seemed a bit stressed. But if it had even occurred to me what he was considering I'd have asked the lad out for a pint. Maybe or maybe it wouldn't have made a difference.

    I just urge anyone to please please talk to someone if you are in a dark place. Devores post is an excellent one with some great tips, and you can find it here.


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  • #42
    Bipolar Joe
    Registered Users Posts: 3,443 ✭✭✭Bipolar Joe


    I think there's so many factors in the reasons behind suicide that pointing the finger needs both hands to get all the targets. The future of youth does look bleak. Many feel emotionally isolated. I know myself that men having feelings other than football is great and look at that ladies tits is often seen as ridiculous. The worst part of it is you feel trapped.

    I would always have people try to guilt me out of depression. People get angry that you feel like ending everything. Imagine how everyone else would feel, etc etc. Personally, I really think it's terrible for everyone else to expect someone to live a life they hate just so they don't get upset. I don't look down on people who want to die, or who do make that step. I wish things were better for them, but I get it.

    Telling someone to just perk up is also really, REALLY stupid. If someone gets hit by a car and their arm is lying several feet away, you don't tell them to just walk it off. They need actual, proper help. Platitudes about how great the sky is are useless.

    I dunno if this is even appropriate, but if anyone is feeling depressed to that point, send me a PM. Maybe we can hook up for coffee and talk some time. It can help, sometimes, to just see someone have an interest in your mind.


  • #43
    Autonomous Cowherd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,100 ✭✭✭Autonomous Cowherd


    I have no answers whatsoever in this area, but it is a question that has been bothering me very deeply of late...

    I know 3 very young people (14-16) who have committed suicide in the last few months, and since I moved to this very rural area about 2 decades ago I know scores of people in a 20-30 mile radius who have taken their own lives. Neighbours, parents of my children's friends, the farmer who herded his cows past my door, children in the local school.....It is a horrific nightmare that stalks this land.

    And it does seem to be increasing. I know people say that statistically we are better at reporting so that accounts for the increase, but Jesus, I never heard of so many when i was younger.

    The strange thing about depression is that many people, myself included, actually struggle desperately and valiantly through the dark night, determined to survive and to come out the other side. A lot of depressives do not consider suicide as an option, in fact have a deep desire to embrace this beautiful life, and will endure the most abject torment in order to live another day.

    In some of the cases of recent suicide i know of, there seems to have been an element of ''sudden impulse'', a drastic urge, a moment of utter abandon, rather than a long period of sustained depression. Therefore I would posit the idea that suicide has somehow become more of a psychologically acceptable option, an idea that when it arises no longer leads to an immediate rejection as being taboo....as if somehow we have become inoculated to the very idea of suicide and therefore it does not repel us, or rather the person who moves towards it, much as seeing violence and abuse in movies inoculates us to a sensation of empathy for those who suffer.......

    Like I say, I don't know. I wish I did.


  • #44
    seven_eleven
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,558 ✭✭✭seven_eleven


    http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mc9kc6FlCQ1r2m5c0o1_1280.jpg

    sums up the "suicide is selfish" argument nicely imo. Depressioncomix on tumblr is the name if you want to see more. They're pretty good and put a lot of things in a different perspective.


  • #45
    HeyThereDeliah
    Closed Accounts Posts: 967 ✭✭✭HeyThereDeliah


    Andy!! wrote: »
    You havent got a clue what youre talking about. Honestly. You can stop posting in this thread n all.

    That's patronising but don't worry I will not be posting in this thread again but you could consider the possibility that I might know what I'm talking about.
    Andy!! wrote: »
    Such one-liner BS. I hate that line. Not only is it untrue, but it is very patronising.


    Read this again it's someone else's opinion you might not agree with.

    http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=permanent%20solution%20to%20a%20temporary%20problem&source=web&cd=4&ved=0CDsQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.suicide.org%2Fpermanent-solution-to-a-temporary-problem.html&ei=bGSSUOC1LZS6hAfn-4GICA&usg=AFQjCNG8X6srCmMRU9JuFWqSxpuuouAirQ


  • #46
    danslevent
    Registered Users Posts: 892 ✭✭✭danslevent


    My Dad suffers from depression and I am glad some people on here have shared their stories because I honestly don't know how to feel/think about it. I feel like I have been really selfish...it has been going on for weeks now and at first I'd listen when I came home at the weekends from college but I have gotten annoyed with his usual rant and him never asking me anything about my life. I know, selfish of me since he is ill.

    I'm going to try understand it more but is it bad sometimes I just don't want to hear about it? It really is so upsetting and he refuses councelling etc, I just don't know what to say anymore. He has made off hand comments about taking too many sleeping tablets but thankfully he seems a lot better now.

    I wish I could feel what it feels like to be properly, properly depressed for just one day so I could relate and understand more. Is there anything a person can really do to get someone out of a depression? I feel so redundant sometimes even though I know someone elses happiness isn't my complete responsibility.


  • #47
    Bipolar Joe
    Registered Users Posts: 3,443 ✭✭✭Bipolar Joe


    danslevent wrote: »
    My Dad suffers from depression and I am glad some people on here have shared their stories because I honestly don't know how to feel/think about it. I feel like I have been really selfish...it has been going on for weeks now and at first I'd listen when I came home at the weekends from college but I have gotten annoyed with his usual rant and him never asking me anything about my life. I know, selfish of me since he is ill.

    I'm going to try understand it more but is it bad sometimes I just don't want to hear about it? It really is so upsetting and he refuses councelling etc, I just don't know what to say anymore. He has made off hand comments about taking too many sleeping tablets but thankfully he seems a lot better now.

    I wish I could feel what it feels like to be properly, properly depressed for just one day so I could relate and understand more. Is there anything a person can really do to get someone out of a depression? I feel so redundant sometimes even though I know someone elses happiness isn't my complete responsibility.

    I wouldn't say you're selfish, it's a natural reaction. People are selfish in general. Ask your Dad why he doesn't want counselling. If it's the usual case of thinking it's not needed, you gotta make him see it is, or if it's embarrassment then tell him it's OK to go see someone. If you have broken bones you go see a Doctor. If it's your mind that's broken it's not much different, you need someone who has an understanding of it to help you. The best thing YOU can do is just be there, man, and help him out realistically.


  • #48
    Handsome Bob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,905 ✭✭✭✭Handsome Bob


    Andy!! wrote: »
    and with some 'psychiatrists' that I can tell you from personal experience suffer from a number of disorders themselves.

    What makes you think this? There's an old saying that people that cannot help themselves cannot help others. If one is struggling with coping with their own mental illness, they cannot take on the burdens of others as they will burn out very quickly, that goes for any profession where you are working with vulnerable people.


  • #49
    Mr Benevolent
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,456 ✭✭✭✭Mr Benevolent


    Promac wrote: »
    Ireland is a feckin horrible country to be depressed in. People who don't normally get depressed will get depressed in Ireland. Living in Ireland I was ready for the noose.

    Errr... NZ has one of the highest suicide rates in the world, and that's official.


  • #50
    Esoteric_
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,255 ✭✭✭✭Esoteric_


    I'm 23 and I know of at least 15 people that I knew who took their own lives, some of whom were very close friends.

    The problem (that I see) is the lack of treatment available for people with mental health illnesses who are at risk of doing this. When I was younger, I had some issues and was severely depressed, with anxiety and Post Traumatic Stress on top of that. I waited 3 months to see a psychiatrist, even though I was such high risk that my pharmacist would only give me a week's supply of anti-depressants at a time, on order of my GP. After waiting 3 months to see a psychiatrist, I then waited 6 months for counselling. It also took two years to get an official diagnosis, as they were convinced I was bi-polar, despite me showing NO symptoms of it.

    Eventually, I couldn't handle it and my parents paid for me to be treated privately. I had an appointment within 2 weeks, counselling 4 weeks later, a diagnosis after a month and was finished treatment within a year.

    I'm now totally happy, healthy and have no need for counselling or medication, but what about people who aren't in the position of having their parents pay for private healthcare?

    If you think someone with such severe depression that they want to die can hold out for 3 months for an appointment, that's a huge mistake. If you're suicidal, you need help NOW. Thankfully I was never suicidal, but I can completely understand why some people end their lives, when the 'help' available is really bad (from what I personally have experienced).

    Also, suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem? Not really. Some people will have mentall illness for life, some people will suffer with trauma for life.

    Nobody who chooses suicide as a viable option is in a rational frame of mind when choosing to take such a route. Depression completely eradicates all sense of reasoning and rationality.


  • #51
    cazzak79
    Registered Users Posts: 411 ✭✭cazzak79


    I wish though the people that do commit suicide could see the effect on the people left behind the hurt and devastation
    More should be done to stop it


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  • #52
    Shryke
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,199 ✭✭✭Shryke


    cazzak79 wrote: »
    I wish though the people that do commit suicide could see the effect on the people left behind the hurt and devastation
    More should be done to stop it

    This attitude makes me think you don't understand depression tbh.


  • #53
    Sauve
    Registered Users Posts: 22,646 ✭✭✭✭Sauve


    cazzak79 wrote: »
    I wish though the people that do commit suicide could see the effect on the people left behind the hurt and devastation
    More should be done to stop it

    That's the stinger for those that are left behind. We feel that they 'didn't think about what they were leaving behind'. They did, but we need to realise that their minds were far from being in a place where they could even begin to think about it rationally.
    In a lot of cases, suicide victims will reason with themselves that others' lives will be much better off without them in it, when the opposite is in fact true.

    Its up to families, friends, colleagues, anybody to spot the signs and reach out to someone. If you're contemplating suicide, you just dont have a clear enough head to see the consequences for what they really are.


  • #54
    Sauve
    Registered Users Posts: 22,646 ✭✭✭✭Sauve


    Shryke wrote: »

    This attitude makes me think you don't understand depression tbh.

    While I agree with you, it's a tough thing to get your head around the fact that somebody chose to leave you that way.
    It's a misinformed and untrue reaction, but it takes a lot for those left behind to see it that way.
    Grief clouds judgement too :)


  • #55
    Handsome Bob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,905 ✭✭✭✭Handsome Bob


    The thing about suicide is that there is no one 'true' way of looking at it. It's an incredibly complicated subject to say the very least, one that has a number of players when it occurs with various, valid, perspectives.


  • #56
    mickstupp
    Registered Users Posts: 1,764 ✭✭✭mickstupp


    Sauve wrote: »
    In a lot of cases, suicide victims will reason with themselves that others' lives will be much better off without them in it...
    Yeah, that's certainly the way my thinking used to be. I felt like I was a terrible burden to everyone else, and that getting rid of myself would be great for everyone. They wouldn't have me dragging them down, and I'd stop being in pain all the time. Win, win. Seems entirely rational when you're in the middle of it. What's more, it can seem entirely selfless. Like you're doing a good thing for everyone.

    Some people don't understand that it's not actually a case where people are being selfish. They're ill. And irrational. But there's a group of people who will point fingers and blame and try make really depressed and suicidal people feel worse. I personally think that's next door to criminal. They need help, not accusations, not dismissive remarks, not fingers being pointed.


  • #57
    Emeraldy Pebbles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 787 ✭✭✭Emeraldy Pebbles


    Ares wrote: »
    Life can be amazingly wonderful. I went for a cycle there Saturday evening back home where the blue sky and the horizon blended into a wonderful mash of differing shades of blue. Life can be so beautiful and fulfilling. Its such an awful pity that some can never see this and take the tragic end to their issues.

    When you're depressed that blue won't look so brilliant.


  • #58
    Sauve
    Registered Users Posts: 22,646 ✭✭✭✭Sauve


    mickstupp wrote: »
    there's a group of people who will point fingers and blame and try make really depressed and suicidal people feel worse. I personally think that's next door to criminal. They need help, not accusations, not dismissive remarks, not fingers being pointed.

    Absolutely, youre right. Just dont forget that someone hearing a message such as 'I want to die' from a husband/wife/son/daughter/friend is highly unlikely to react rationally.
    That too takes a lot of strength.


  • #59
    cazzak79
    Registered Users Posts: 411 ✭✭cazzak79


    I understand depression too much
    my aunt committed suicide her family where devastated still are 20 years late my dad has had 2 breakdowns which was horrible as had to watch him crying and visited him in hospital when we was treated
    Finally over 10 years ago I attempted suicide myself I still have depression but il never forgot how upset my parents and my siblings were
    That why I said people who have committed suicide if they could see the reaction from people left behind


  • #60
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    cazzak79 wrote: »
    I understand depression too much
    my aunt committed suicide her family where devastated still are 20 years late my dad has had 2 breakdowns which was horrible as had to watch him crying and visited him in hospital when we was treated
    Finally over 10 years ago I attempted suicide myself I still have depression but il never forgot how upset my parents and my siblings were
    That why I said people who have committed suicide if they could see the reaction from people left behind

    I actually thought I was doing everyone a favour by ending it all. I could see how much of a burden I was on my family, my husband was doing so much and becoming depressed himself as a result and that made me think if I was gone he would be able to get back to normal. Of course now I can see how fcuked up that idea was, my death would have devestated the family but at the time I could see that.

    People have to remember that depression is an illness. It totally messes up your entire psyche. Its not like being down or upset over something, you can still think rationally despite that, its so much more than that.

    I often feel one of the hardest things about explaining it to people is trying to get them to understand that depression goes far beyond just feeling sad.


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  • #61
    jackofalltrades
    Registered Users Posts: 3,231 ✭✭✭jackofalltrades


    newmug wrote: »
    The term "mental illness" itself is too general a term.
    IMHO using a more specific label can cause more damage than using a vague, general one. Using labels can panic people who need help. People hear about depression and think, "Do I have that? Mary up the road had that and went through a terrible time, I hope that's not what I have".
    crusher000 wrote:
    What I can't understand is how much money is spent campaigning for road safety in Ireland but suicide takes more lives and the same financial backing isn't there.
    Road safety for the majority of people is the "easy fix". There's a lot of drivers out there that think their driving is fine and that someone else needs to change. People feel that they have control over it, roads can be improved, enforcement can be stepped up.

    Suicide on the other hand is a much more complex issue. There are no quick fixes to it. There is no equivalent of "improving the roads leading to a reduction in deaths" for dealing with suicide. I think this unsettles a lot of people and makes them feel powerless.

    Everyone would have to be part of the solution to suicide. When people plead and ask people who are suicidal/depressed to talk to people, there has to be someone to talk to. And I mean genuinely talk and listen to without judgement.

    I went through a rough patch myself over the last year, finding people to talk to outside of counsellors, was and still is a challenge. A lot of people bring out the kid gloves straight away, you opening up to them can bring out uncomfortable feelings in them and so talking isn't that productive. Others on the other hand have never learned how to listen and use you wanting to talk as an excuse for them to vent every little issue about their life when all you need is someone to listen to you. Not to mention judgemental people and "troublshooters".


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