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RPT Hours

2

Comments

  • #32
    whiteandlight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,359 ✭✭✭whiteandlight


    True my subject is maths and our numbers are up. I don't have any hours in my other subject music. My worry is more that someone would be redeployed in, not so much that my hours would evaporate. Having said that I'm nowhere near full hours so then the question becomes even if I get my job back do I keep looking etc etc


  • #33
    linguist
    Registered Users Posts: 615 ✭✭✭linguist


    Ok, well let's be realistic. The biggest risk to your maths hours would arise through the combining of higher/ordinary/foundation classes or a generalised reduction in the number of class divisions. If the final allocation is bad, that's always a possibility. It could happen to me in languages too, but most of my classes are already very full so I see it as rather unlikely.

    The one thing I really try not to worry about is redeployment because, of all the variables in play, it's the one over which you have least control. It's also, frankly, the most unlikely thing to happen. I get the impression that the risk of losing out to redeployment is greatest in the VEC sector.

    Coming to your final point, yes, if I were in your position (low hours) I'd definitely be looking around.


  • #34
    whiteandlight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,359 ✭✭✭whiteandlight


    And I am in the vec sector! Unfortunately there's nowhere to look right now so it's a case of waiting an seeing what my school can give me this year and waiting to see what's out there. Neither of which seems to be confirm able in the short term!


  • #35
    Augustine Hipp
    Registered Users Posts: 5 ✭Augustine Hipp


    vamos! wrote: »
    I have heard of a lot of situations (including my own) where people are being offered crazily low hours. 11 hours seems to be rich pickings at the moment. I know some of it is down to subject combos and I have heard one principal admitting that it makes timetabling easier,

    I feel your pain.

    My partner is heading into the CID year in a VEC. Just got told their hours are now down to 14. The reason? The school principal has taken them for themselves, so as to avoid teaching their second subject (generally considered a hard one). Neither the principal or the regular teacher of that subject want to take exam years, so they are going to hire someone full time to do so, while they have first years.


  • #36
    linguist
    Registered Users Posts: 615 ✭✭✭linguist


    Augustine_Hipp: This is shocking. I would see it as being a matter of going straight to the union, provided there are no unusual circumstances:

    Is your partner fully qualified to teach the subject whose hours are being taken away? If not, and the other teachers are, it would be difficult to fight.

    However, if hours are available in the subject, and those hours belonged to your partner up to now, there should be a chance of fighting this. I am guessing from your post that we are talking about a small school here where the principal does an amount of teaching. If there has been a decline in enrolment, it is conceivable that difficult choices have to be made. However, given that next year's hours are vital for the CID, I see no alternative but to go to the union and have the principal explain the whole matter to their satisfaction or otherwise back down.

    I can only imagine how upsetting this is, however there is time. Owing to redeployment, it'll surely be mid-June by the time RPT contracts are available. So it's chin up and phone the union first thing on Monday I would say.


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  • #37
    Augustine Hipp
    Registered Users Posts: 5 ✭Augustine Hipp


    Thanks so much linguist. Really appreciate the advice.

    Not such a small school. Partner fully qualified. Shared the subject with another, (who has CID). Enrolment steady or increasing. Bout the only thing is the principal is relatively new, having come from within.

    I don't think partner wants to go down the union route if at all possible. Forgive my complete lack of experience, but, how does something like that actually work in real life? Surely a union call on the matter would really put the principals back up? Even if it did work.


  • #38
    linguist
    Registered Users Posts: 615 ✭✭✭linguist


    Hi again. I know that it's easy to give bellicose advice when I'm not the one who will have to follow through on it, but let me try to flesh out how I see this.

    Would calling in the union get the principal's back up? Possibly. But who is hurting who here? Your partner has worked for three years, doubtless put everything they can into proving their commitment, on the clear basis that after four years, they would earn their CID. Both sides know that. It's the law. Now what's happened? The principal, who is there to run the school, not teach classes, has decided to take some hours from your partner at the most crucial moment of their career and it seems that he/she is in cahoots with another teacher. Both of these people have their secure permanent jobs - as the poet Louis MacNeice once said 'their portion sure' - whilst they are acting in an appalling manner towards your partner.

    CID issues are not only one of the biggest issues the unions deal with; they are also an area in which the unions excel. Why should your partner be afraid of getting the principal's back up? The principal has potentially done him/her great harm. If you don't fight this, not only do you let it stand but you also send out a message to these people that they can do what they like. Don't for one minute believe in the benevolence of school management. There are many good principals but there are plenty of unscrupulous ones too and lots of people here have given evidence of that.

    When your partner calls the union, they will have to give the full facts as they see them. The union won't do anything unless they feel that they can. So the phone call from the union to the school won't happen unless the union feels there is something up. Schools are unionised workplaces and matters such as this are a fact of life. When you work for a boss for three years only to be treated like this, you owe them nothing. Your partner owes themselves and you the dignity of a decent income and a realistic career and I'm sure I'm not alone in being prepared to fight for those if ever I have to.


  • #39
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,381 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    linguist wrote: »
    Hi again. I know that it's easy to give bellicose advice when I'm not the one who will have to follow through on it, but let me try to flesh out how I see this.

    Would calling in the union get the principal's back up? Possibly. But who is hurting who here? Your partner has worked for three years, doubtless put everything they can into proving their commitment, on the clear basis that after four years, they would earn their CID. Both sides know that. It's the law. Now what's happened? The principal, who is there to run the school, not teach classes, has decided to take some hours from your partner at the most crucial moment of their career and it seems that he/she is in cahoots with another teacher. Both of these people have their secure permanent jobs - as the poet Louis MacNeice once said 'their portion sure' - whilst they are acting in an appalling manner towards your partner.

    CID issues are not only one of the biggest issues the unions deal with; they are also an area in which the unions excel. Why should your partner be afraid of getting the principal's back up? The principal has potentially done him/her great harm. If you don't fight this, not only do you let it stand but you also send out a message to these people that they can do what they like. Don't for one minute believe in the benevolence of school management. There are many good principals but there are plenty of unscrupulous ones too and lots of people here have given evidence of that.

    When your partner calls the union, they will have to give the full facts as they see them. The union won't do anything unless they feel that they can. So the phone call from the union to the school won't happen unless the union feels there is something up. Schools are unionised workplaces and matters such as this are a fact of life. When you work for a boss for three years only to be treated like this, you owe them nothing. Your partner owes themselves and you the dignity of a decent income and a realistic career and I'm sure I'm not alone in being prepared to fight for those if ever I have to.

    This is all conjecture. The post stated the principal did not want to teach exam classes, not that the principal didn't have any teaching hours. It hasn't been established whether or not the principal has has hours in the past, or whether they have been getting away with not having to teach the last few years but due to cutbacks they now have to take on teaching hours.

    If this is the case it wouldn't be uncommon for a principal to take a junior class instead of leaving certs, as they can get called away quite often as and a leaving cert group takes priority they don't want to leave them sitting there without a teacher. If this is the case then the permanent teacher will get preference for the hours not the part time teacher and there is no case.

    As for 'not wanting to teach the harder subject' type stuff. Seriously? I would wonder at anyone who holds a degree in a subject and didn't want to teach it because it was 'hard'. How hard can it be if you have studied it to degree level?

    Not saying the principal isn't taking away hours on purpose, but there could be a whole load of reasons for doing it that are being ignored here.


  • #40
    spurious
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,100 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    Augustine Hipp wrote: »
    Thanks so much linguist. Really appreciate the advice.

    Not such a small school. Partner fully qualified. Shared the subject with another, (who has CID). Enrolment steady or increasing. Bout the only thing is the principal is relatively new, having come from within.

    I don't think partner wants to go down the union route if at all possible. Forgive my complete lack of experience, but, how does something like that actually work in real life? Surely a union call on the matter would really put the principals back up? Even if it did work.

    I would be of the opinion that the union is the only way to fight this.


  • #41
    Chilli Con Kearney
    Registered Users Posts: 301 ✭✭Chilli Con Kearney


    I thought that principals had received notice of allocations in February? That the department had changed the timing on such matters and as a result people would be informed earlier about hours, as opposed to the usual waiting around that goes on? Am I wrong on this?

    Even if it was only notice re 70% of allocations, surely principals are still better placed to put staff out of their misery than previous years?


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  • #42
    Augustine Hipp
    Registered Users Posts: 5 ✭Augustine Hipp


    Many thanks all, especially to linguist (Your post was very reassuring over the weekend).

    Re: any other conjecture or reasons. There isn't any. Principal was quite up front with partner and told them they (principal) were taking some of the partners hours (the non exam classes) because they didn't want to teach their other subject. What isn't being said, but is pretty obvious, is the sudden change of direction this year being a CID year. If the partner receives the 22 hours they have had up til now, then the principal will have no other choice but to teach their disliked subject from then on in. Its essentially juggling the books/subject combos to suit themselves.

    AFAIK, principal doesn't have to teach much. Just a few hours a week. The choice is between partners subject, and principals disliked subject.

    Union is being contacted to see what they advise.


  • #43
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,381 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    Augustine Hipp wrote: »
    Many thanks all, especially to linguist (Your post was very reassuring over the weekend).

    Re: any other conjecture or reasons. There isn't any. Principal was quite up front with partner and told them they (principal) were taking some of the partners hours (the non exam classes) because they didn't want to teach their other subject. What isn't being said, but is pretty obvious, is the sudden change of direction this year being a CID year. If the partner receives the 22 hours they have had up til now, then the principal will have no other choice but to teach their disliked subject from then on in. Its essentially juggling the books/subject combos to suit themselves.

    AFAIK, principal doesn't have to teach much. Just a few hours a week. The choice is between partners subject, and principals disliked subject.

    Union is being contacted to see what they advise.

    Union probably is the only route so, but given that the principal is a permanent member of staff, they would get first preference on the hours and will probably use the reason 'to meet the needs of the school' to justify it.

    While your partner should probably do what they can to maintain their hours I wouldn't be too confident in this situation.

    I'm guessing your partner doesn't have the other subject, hence it not being a straight swap?


  • #44
    linguist
    Registered Users Posts: 615 ✭✭✭linguist


    Only a few days ago I was here giving what passes for advice to others...what a difference a week makes. I am going into my CID year and facing a cut from 19 to 14 hours. Devastating! The school is in DEIS and has been very hard hit by cuts.

    I now have to decide whether to hang on in there and try to build up again - enrolment is projected to increase - or go and see if I can find something better and start all over yet again! I have considerable financial commitments so this is a serious choice. Any thoughts?


  • #45
    carolzoo
    Registered Users Posts: 93 ✭✭carolzoo


    Sorry to hear that linguist

    are you going into year 4 or year 5?


  • #46
    linguist
    Registered Users Posts: 615 ✭✭✭linguist


    Going into year 4. It just seems so unfair when you work for three years to get to this point to have it go wrong.


  • #47
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,381 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    That's a pure balls linguist. I suppose in your situation, would you prefer to have a solid 14 hours for the next few years (minimum) or can you afford to take the risk of moving jobs this year, for more hours but without the security? If of course there's a job to move to.


  • #48
    carolzoo
    Registered Users Posts: 93 ✭✭carolzoo


    i agree, it's a pure balls. yes that's your cid year alright unfortunately.


  • #49
    whiteandlight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,359 ✭✭✭whiteandlight


    That's absolutely crap, so sorry linguist

    If you get 14hrs in your CID contract, what happens if you are assigned 22hrs of your own the following year, can your CID be updated/upgraded?


  • #50
    linguist
    Registered Users Posts: 615 ✭✭✭linguist


    Well those are indeed the issues the I will have to grapple with over the summer. Can I say straight away that I'd really appreciate feedback from anyone with concrete experience or recommendations - by PM if necessary. I'll listen to every opinion.

    Taking Musicmental85 first, the unions say that it is possible to get an 'enhanced' CID but they don't go into details. I understand that it can be done but I really don't fancy waiting years for it to happen.

    rainbowtrout: I try to be optimistic and hopefully not naive. I have a good subject combination in the languages area and I genuinely believe that there will be opportunities this summer. educationposts.ie is encouraging in terms of the number of jobs up at this stage. I'm also told that, in Dublin, redeployment isn't really a big worry given the general rise in student numbers and expansion of schools. If I moved, the challenge would be to find something where both my subjects were rock solid in the curriculum of a school whose numbers were going in the right direction. It's a shame that so many of the new schools are VEC because of their internal moving about. I'd be most interested to enter into PM contact with anyone who can advise on Co. Dublin VEC in particular. As I said, all views welcome.


  • #51
    vamos!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 525 ✭✭✭vamos!


    Can't offer any advice but wanted to say that I am sorry to hear of people being screwed over in their CID year:mad: I hope something better and brighter comes up over the summer.


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  • #52
    whiteandlight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,359 ✭✭✭whiteandlight


    linguist wrote: »
    Well those are indeed the issues the I will have to grapple with over the summer. Can I say straight away that I'd really appreciate feedback from anyone with concrete experience or recommendations - by PM if necessary. I'll listen to every opinion.

    Taking Musicmental85 first, the unions say that it is possible to get an 'enhanced' CID but they don't go into details. I understand that it can be done but I really don't fancy waiting years for it to happen.

    rainbowtrout: I try to be optimistic and hopefully not naive. I have a good subject combination in the languages area and I genuinely believe that there will be opportunities this summer. educationposts.ie is encouraging in terms of the number of jobs up at this stage. I'm also told that, in Dublin, redeployment isn't really a big worry given the general rise in student numbers and expansion of schools. If I moved, the challenge would be to find something where both my subjects were rock solid in the curriculum of a school whose numbers were going in the right direction. It's a shame that so many of the new schools are VEC because of their internal moving about. I'd be most interested to enter into PM contact with anyone who can advise on Co. Dublin VEC in particular. As I said, all views welcome.

    Well if the numbers are going up your first call should be to the union to see what the terms are for enhanced CIDs. If it was a case that the reduced hours were not your permanent unchangeable contract, a year on reduced hours would be better than another four years elsewhere.

    You aren't in a vec are you? I've heard that you can get your CID through different schools in the same vec. If you were really lucky you might get a post in the same vec on a higher number of hours that would get you a better CID.

    It's great to see Wicklow seem to be sorted out (educationposts.ie) bit far for me though so hopefully everyone else gets advertising soon. It's depressing to see only four permanent posts in that list though and one of them is for a DP. Plus on reading the individual adverts I don't think they really are permanent either...


  • #53
    linguist
    Registered Users Posts: 615 ✭✭✭linguist


    No I'm not in a VEC. I have a very open mind at the moment...I won't leave to go to something where the conditions are worse (maternity leave, career break etc...) but with financial commitments it would be very hard to ignore a 'proper' 22hr job. I know that there are career and advancement implications but these are unusual times. Ultimately, the bills have to be paid.


  • #54
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,381 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    linguist wrote: »
    Well those are indeed the issues the I will have to grapple with over the summer. Can I say straight away that I'd really appreciate feedback from anyone with concrete experience or recommendations - by PM if necessary. I'll listen to every opinion.

    My understanding of enhanced CIDs (from my year as rep) is as follows:

    The school is obliged to only give you 14 hours once you get a CID for 14 hours, but of course you can be given hours in excess of this, but it can change from year to year with 14 being your minimum.

    You can apply for an enhanced improved CID, but a bit like the four year CID rule, the school are not obliged to give you an enhanced CID at the end of your fifth year, if say you worked 19 hours next year. You have to do another four years before they are obliged to give you the enhanced one. Of course they can give you one if they choose to do so, but I think that day is long gone, and schools/VECs are only giving out contracts because they are legally obliged to do so.

    What was not clear at the time when I was making these enquiries was if the hours were added to your original CID making it a 19 hour CID (using my example) or if you got a second CID for 5 hours. We haven't been in the position in my school to see this put to the test. The thinking was that you would get two separate contracts, which seems cracked to me, but two separate ones would prevent a teacher from getting the magic 18 hours and being paid for 22. Two separate contracts would mean still only getting paid for the hours you work. I'd be interested myself to here if anyone has any experience of a top up CID.

    While the VEC system might not seem all that attractive with redeployment within a VEC you can have all your hours in separate schools/centres add up to give you a proper contract. Several people do it within my VEC. Also as you build up your years of seniority, it might save you job wise if there are cuts, even if it does mean a move to a different school. Also say if you had a 14 hour contract in School X in a VEC and School Y had another 4 hours going, assuming no one else could add them to their timetables within your VEC you would have a claim on those hours before someone new was brought in.


  • #55
    seavill
    Registered Users Posts: 1,620 ✭✭✭seavill


    one thing to consider based on my experience of 2 different VECs (Not sure is it standard across most VECs or was I just unlucky) but both that I worked in were very keen on splitting up contracts.

    I had 22 hours in both but maybe 10 were mine the rest of the hours were broken up into traveller allocation, foreign national, resource, consessionary etc. the list goes on, 3 hours belonging to this teacher on leave and 3 belonging to this teacher on secondment. This seemed to me to be a recent thing that the VECs became fans of.
    So nowadays (whatever happened in the past) with the 2 vecs I worked in 22 hour contract actually became 10 hours which would actually be relevant for a CID eventually. So for me not all it was cracked up to be when advertised as 22 hours to replace a retirement.
    In the last school the principal explained to all the part timers this was the policy the VEC were taking as they felt it was better for us in case someone came back as then 5 people would lose a few hours rather than someone losing a full job (if you believe that you believe anything, thinking of us my arse)


  • #56
    linguist
    Registered Users Posts: 615 ✭✭✭linguist


    seavill: If you read this document from the ASTI http://www.asti.ie/fileadmin/user_upload/Documents/Individual_articles/Cases.pdf, you'll see they claim to have successfully challenged the practices you describe.

    Obviously, TUI is the union in the VEC sector, but the law is the law!


  • #57
    linguist
    Registered Users Posts: 615 ✭✭✭linguist


    rainbowtrout: Thanks for your answer, even though it depicts the nightmare scenario that I'd rather avoid - the notion that it would be four years again before this would be righted and with no way of knowing what way enrolment and budget measures will go in the meantime.

    The hours allocation on top of a CID - are they RPT hours, payable over 12 months? I presume they are and that your pension contributions and increment are the total of both? That would be crucial.

    To be honest, this is the kind of mess that would make me more inclined to look elsewhere.


  • #58
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,381 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    linguist wrote: »
    rainbowtrout: Thanks for your answer, even though it depicts the nightmare scenario that I'd rather avoid - the notion that it would be four years again before this would be righted and with no way of knowing what way enrolment and budget measures will go in the meantime.

    The hours allocation on top of a CID - are they RPT hours, payable over 12 months? I presume they are and that your pension contributions and increment are the total of both? That would be crucial.

    To be honest, this is the kind of mess that would make me more inclined to look elsewhere.

    Yes they would be RPT and you would be paid for them over the year, pensionable etc, but the following September you have no guarantee of them. We have a number of people on staff with contracts for 17 hours 20 mins, who now in their 5th/6th year are on between 18-22 hours this year, but no guarantee what they will get next year.

    As one teacher pointed out on my staff a couple of years ago who has one of these contracts, a 17:20 contract is working only 80% of the hours you could potentially work and means a huge loss of earnings over a lifetime with the knock on effect on pension at the other end for those who decide to stay in teaching for the long haul.

    Hard to imagine being kept on that for life, but at the same time people aren't likely to move on if they have job security in a market with very little work and if they get married, have kids, get a mortgage it makes it even harder to give up that job.


  • #59
    gaeilgebeo
    Registered Users Posts: 909 ✭✭✭gaeilgebeo


    linguist wrote: »
    Only a few days ago I was here giving what passes for advice to others...what a difference a week makes. I am going into my CID year and facing a cut from 19 to 14 hours. Devastating! The school is in DEIS and has been very hard hit by cuts.

    I now have to decide whether to hang on in there and try to build up again - enrolment is projected to increase - or go and see if I can find something better and start all over yet again! I have considerable financial commitments so this is a serious choice. Any thoughts?

    I am sorry to hear this linguist.
    I'm sure it was a huge blow.
    This is exactly the point I was making in previous posts. Unfortunately DEIS schools have been hit very hard, regardless of enrollment falling etc...
    We had very bad news in our school this week too. :(

    If your enrolment is projected to increase, I would definitely stay put.


  • #60
    Chris68
    Registered Users Posts: 144 ✭✭Chris68


    County Dublin VEC have advertised already - applications closed at this stage. Not sure it would do any good anyhow. I heard they were losing 60+ teachers this summer. Don't know how true that is but its not good news anyhow.:(


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  • #61
    implausible
    Registered Users Posts: 3,937 ✭✭✭implausible


    gaeilgebeo wrote: »
    If your enrolment is projected to increase, I would definitely stay put.

    Tough and all as it is, I'd agree with gaeilgebeo. Come September, you may end up with more than 14 hours with resource, ESL etc. Make sure you express an interest in any special needs hours that come up. I know that isn't what you are looking for, but at least it'll be money in your pocket. If the enrolment is set to increase, there's a good chance that you will get up to the 22, it'll just take longer than you expected.


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