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Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0131/365466-galway-limerick-irish-rail-alan-kelly/
    The Minister for Public and Commuter Transport has said he wants to see a "dramatic improvement" in the number of passengers using the Galway-Limerick train service.
    Alan Kelly said he was concerned about the volume of business on the line, which re-opened in 2010 at a cost of over €100m.
    He said the costs associated with the service meant there was a clear need to improve passenger numbers.
    Mr Kelly said he was hopeful that a commercial plan being drawn up by Iarnród Éireann would encourage people to use the service.
    It is understood this will lead to shorter journey times between the two cities and the introduction of online booking for those wishing to travel on the route.
    Campaigners in favour of the line have called for the progression of the next phase of the Western Rail Corridor, from Athenry to Tuam, but the minister said due to the financial situation there would be no announcement in that regard anytime soon.
    Mr Kelly said that it would not be his choice to close rail lines but that there were concerns about usage of a number of passenger lines on the network.
    Minister Kelly announced funding of €3.7m for a number of transport projects in Galway this morning at Ceannt Station.
    These include a re-design of the bus and rail station, extension of bus lanes and funding to examine the viability of a greenway on the banks of the River Corrib for pedestrians and cyclists.

    Is the minister saying that he will close this line or turn it into a greenway if numbers and revenue don't increase significantly?

    What commercial plan do Irish Rail have in the pipeline for this failed section of branch line?
    The journey times cant really be shortened by any significant amount even when operating express trains between Limerick and Galway and people like the cheaper price and flexibility of being able to get a bus every half hour instead of waiting four or five hours for the slow train.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    who knows? probably not even himself!

    Frankly I can't see the line being closed, political suicide!. Rather the Minister seems to be blaming IE for it's failure which is a bit unfair as they didn't want it in the first place!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    corktina wrote: »
    who knows? probably not even himself!

    Frankly I can't see the line being closed, political suicide!. Rather the Minister seems to be blaming IE for it's failure which is a bit unfair as they didn't want it in the first place!
    I think it will be closed as the likes of the gombeens in the inter county expenses committee do not hold the same clout that they once did and people are all feeling the pinch and do not want their harder earned tax euros wasted on this line!

    It was re-built which was a desperate mistake in times of great wealth for the country, but that wealth has turned to cash in the back pockets of the bond-holding gamblers who sacked the country.

    It is not good enough to just say we must use it now because we spent so much money on it! that would be like a person buying a 4litre car before being laid off then saying they would spend their dole every week on keeping their car on the road because they had spent all that money buying it in better times. The car like the WRC should be left in the driveway in the hope it can be restarted if we ever see better days again or just sold off to the highest bidder and put our worst mistakes behind us!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 222 ✭✭The Idyl Race


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    I think it will be closed as the likes of the gombeens in the inter county expenses committee do not hold the same clout that they once did and people are all feeling the pinch and do not want their harder earned tax euros wasted on this line!

    It was re-built which was a desperate mistake in times of great wealth for the country, but that wealth has turned to cash in the back pockets of the bond-holding gamblers who sacked the country.

    It is not good enough to just say we must use it now because we spent so much money on it! that would be like a person buying a 4litre car before being laid off then saying they would spend their dole every week on keeping their car on the road because they had spent all that money buying it in better times. The car like the WRC should be left in the driveway in the hope it can be restarted if we ever see better days again or just sold off to the highest bidder and put our worst mistakes behind us!

    Like I said earlier, the best option would be to break up the M9, sell the land off to farmers and the tarmac to the travellers. Better bang for the national buck and takes the pressure off elsewhere in the economy. My solution would actually make money for us.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    there really is no comparison with the M9 and the WRC. The M9 usage may not be the largest but I'd bet it beats the usage on the WRC into a cocked hat!

    Why bother trying to support the WRC with such stuff? WHy don't you give us positive arguements in favour of the WRC ?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    Like I said earlier, the best option would be to break up the M9, sell the land off to farmers and the tarmac to the travellers. Better bang for the national buck and takes the pressure off elsewhere in the economy. My solution would actually make money for us.
    There are more than 40-50 people a day using the M9 without counting the valuable route it is for freight to the south-east, It would be cheaper to put end to end passengers on the WRC into taxis and not run trains!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    Unfortunately that is true, and what's more it would be quicker for passengers too.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    It is crazy that there are almost 30 daily services each way between Galway and Limerick at different times and 14 of these are full stopping services which cater for people in the intermediate towns and villages a lot better than the train can ever do!

    Yet people are happy to keep a failed section of 150 year old branch line open for the "Aah that's how we used to travel" factor! Will some auld codger who worked on the line for a year or two have to die off before people see sense about this line?


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,811 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    corktina wrote: »
    there really is no comparison with the M9 and the WRC. The M9 usage may not be the largest but I'd bet it beats the usage on the WRC into a cocked hat!

    Why bother trying to support the WRC with such stuff? WHy don't you give us positive arguements in favour of the WRC ?

    The M20 should have been done before the M9 but the M9 will benefit Waterford for the next 100 years or more. The WRC wont benefit anybody.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    The M20 should have been done before the M9 but the M9 will benefit Waterford for the next 100 years or more. The WRC wont benefit anybody.
    Traditionally all the WRC and other such personal/branch lines ever benefited were the wealthy west-brit landlords who raped the country and it's people sending countless men women and children to early graves through forced poverty and jails or the poorhouses which were in every town and village!


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,610 ✭✭✭eastwest


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    Traditionally all the WRC and other such personal/branch lines ever benefited were the wealthy west-brit landlords who raped the country and it's people sending countless men women and children to early graves through forced poverty and jails or the poorhouses which were in every town and village!
    The branch lines were built in an era before cars and had a social value before roads that could sustain a bus service. They have had their day.
    The debate about the WRC is not about rail v tourism, it is about keeping an asset in public ownership or allowing it to be taken over piecemeal and lost to the state. It would cost a fortune to establish this corridor, so why let it disappear? Makes no sense except to councillors who profit from the current situation.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    I fail to see what the M9 has to do with anything....the northern section carries a respectable amount of traffic, certainly far more than a single c arriageway could bear > http://nraextra.nra.ie/CurrentTrafficCounterData/html/M09-3.htm and the southern section , while not trafficked to motorway levels did require a complete rebuild even if not as a motorway > http://nraextra.nra.ie/CurrentTrafficCounterData/html/M09-12.htm

    So any waste on the southern half of the M9 was merely the difference between an offline single like the Knock Bypass and a full motorway. Not even 50% of the end cost I should think. Digging it all up again is a risible idea and introducing the M9 into this thread is no help to any cause or campaign ......whatsoever. :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,663 ✭✭✭serfboard


    From the RTE link quoted above:
    ... a commercial plan being drawn up by Iarnród Éireann ... will lead to

    [1.] shorter journey times between the two cities and

    [2.] the introduction of online booking for those wishing to travel on the route.
    OK. So they're finally talking about online booking which advocates have called for. Question is, when is this going to happen?

    As regards the first part - anyone have any ideas as to how they plan to shorten the journey times and by how much? From the latest timetables, the fastest time that I can see from Galway->Limerick is 1:50. The express bus is half an hour faster than that.

    The slowest train is the 18:00 from Limerick, which takes a full 2 hours and 16 minutes to get to Galway :eek:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 222 ✭✭The Idyl Race


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    I fail to see what the M9 has to do with anything....the northern section carries a respectable amount of traffic, certainly far more than a single c arriageway could bear > http://nraextra.nra.ie/CurrentTrafficCounterData/html/M09-3.htm and the southern section , while not trafficked to motorway levels did require a complete rebuild even if not as a motorway > http://nraextra.nra.ie/CurrentTrafficCounterData/html/M09-12.htm

    So any waste on the southern half of the M9 was merely the difference between an offline single like the Knock Bypass and a full motorway. Not even 50% of the end cost I should think. Digging it all up again is a risible idea and introducing the M9 into this thread is no help to any cause or campaign ......whatsoever. :)

    It is hyperbole, along the same lines as foggy_lad's heartfelt wish that promoters of the WRC be jailed. I'm not affiliated to any campaign. The self seriousness of this thread needs to be regularly punctured.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 222 ✭✭The Idyl Race


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    Traditionally all the WRC and other such personal/branch lines ever benefited were the wealthy west-brit landlords who raped the country and it's people sending countless men women and children to early graves through forced poverty and jails or the poorhouses which were in every town and village!

    foggy_lad, I and many others in this country could tell you stories about "our own gentry" who kept this country in the mire for generations after independence, good Catholic patriotic Irishmen the lot of them. Black and white thinking is for nice arty photographs.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 222 ✭✭The Idyl Race


    corktina wrote: »
    there really is no comparison with the M9 and the WRC. The M9 usage may not be the largest but I'd bet it beats the usage on the WRC into a cocked hat!

    Why bother trying to support the WRC with such stuff? WHy don't you give us positive arguements in favour of the WRC ?

    Because I'm not your dancing monkey. Simple really. And judging from what I have read, even if I gave any irrefutable evidence of the benefits of the WRC and cost-benefit analysis of any improvements, it would simply be fodder for dismissal and on stupid and ignorant bases such as the Brit landlord crap trotted out by foggy_lad. I think you all spent too much time in college reading a load of American anti rail propaganda, and as long as my real life isn't impinging, which it does, I'd rather not be reading a circle jerk of anti rail and pro sprawl rhetoric masquerading as fact.

    Have a nice day :)


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,071 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument



    What kiind of Kafkaesque comment is that?

    Councilors are subject to conflict of interist rules: http://www.environ.ie/en/Publications/LocalGovernment/Administration/FileDownLoad,1956,en.pdf

    I'm asking if being a railway employe does or should prohibit a councilors from discussing railway matters. I don't know the answer to the question.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 222 ✭✭The Idyl Race


    monument wrote: »
    Councilors are subject to conflict of interist rules: http://www.environ.ie/en/Publications/LocalGovernment/Administration/FileDownLoad,1956,en.pdf

    I'm asking if being a railway employe does or should prohibit a councilors from discussing railway matters. I don't know the answer to the question.

    The plain answer is no. County Councillors quite often have day jobs and come from a broader spectrum of life than TDs. Conflict of interest in practice would only apply if a councillor had a financial interest, such as ownership of a building company, if the council was tendering for a builder. An employee generally will not be directing the policy of their employer.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,288 ✭✭✭pigtown


    corktina wrote: »
    You are falling into the trap of not comparing journeys properly.

    No journeys start at a Railway Station, they start at your front door. To compare properly you have to include the time (and cost) of getting to the station, parking and then waiting for your train to arrive and the same the other end. This also applies to the Bus of course but NOT to the car which DOES start from your door and end up at your destination (generally), so there is no way at all that Train OR Bus will be as quick as the car and almost certainly cost more as the fixed costs of the car are mostly already paid.

    How does anyone compare journeys accurately so? Surely everyone has to travel a different distance to their house. (Genuinely curious here. What do officials do in relation to this?) And as for time and cost of getting to the station and waiting for your train, obviously you factor this into your journey plan and time your arrival at the station so you don't have to wait.
    The bus is already half an hour or so quicker than the train on this route and investing in a direct curve wont save anymore than few minutes and would cost a significant amount in land purchase, signalling alterations and construction costs.
    Which bus is this? CityLink is 1h30mins Limerick to Cork.
    The second part is what I was interested in all along. Has a study ever been carried out about this? How much time would it save? I'm no railway designer but a Limerick train can already run parallel to the Cork-Dublin line, surely the platforms in between could be reconfigured to allow a cross over and no land purchase would be needed.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,071 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument



    The plain answer is no. County Councillors quite often have day jobs and come from a broader spectrum of life than TDs. Conflict of interest in practice would only apply if a councillor had a financial interest, such as ownership of a building company, if the council was tendering for a builder. An employee generally will not be directing the policy of their employer.

    The document says it goes beyond just a financial interest.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 28,928 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    Is the minister saying that he will close this line or turn it into a greenway if numbers and revenue don't increase significantly?
    no, he said it isn't up to him to close lines
    foggy_lad wrote: »
    What commercial plan do Irish Rail have in the pipeline for this failed section of branch line?
    why don't you email and ask them?
    foggy_lad wrote: »
    people like the cheaper price and flexibility of being able to get a bus every half hour instead of waiting four or five hours for the slow train.
    no they actually rather their cars instead of waiting half an hour for a bus, a car is more comfortable and one can go where they want when they want, a bus has a fixed destination and is slow shaky and uncomfortable.

    shut down alcohol action ireland now! end MUP today!



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,350 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    pigtown wrote: »
    How does anyone compare journeys accurately so? Surely everyone has to travel a different distance to their house. (Genuinely curious here. What do officials do in relation to this?) And as for time and cost of getting to the station and waiting for your train, obviously you factor this into your journey plan and time your arrival at the station so you don't have to wait.

    This is the difference between a person who is an ideological fan of a particular mode of transport and an actual commuter who actually makes these journeys.

    A commuter couldn't care less if it is a bus, train, car, donkey or teleporter that gets them from A to B. A commuter just wants to get from A to B in the quickest, cheapest, most comfortable and environmentally friendly way possible *.

    * Obviously not all are possible at the same time, different people have different balances. For instance someone might opt for a slightly longer journey if it was significantly cheaper.

    A to B means from their door to their destination. Ignore that and you end up with a line that no one uses.
    pigtown wrote: »
    The second part is what I was interested in all along. Has a study ever been carried out about this? How much time would it save? I'm no railway designer but a Limerick train can already run parallel to the Cork-Dublin line, surely the platforms in between could be reconfigured to allow a cross over and no land purchase would be needed.

    I'm not sure a study has ever been done, but it certainly wouldn't be faster then by car. Best case scenario it might equal the bus, but very unlikely to surpass it.

    But then why spend 10's of millions more to do this? Do you really think it would lead to any significant increase in passenger numbers. I don't, it would just be another big waste of money.

    Read between the lines (no pun intended!) of what the minister said above. It is hilarious seeing people asking for even more money to be spent on the WRC when it is clear that the minister is saying that the recently opened line and other branch lines are in danger of being closed!!

    If you are a fan of rail, you should be focused on trying to keep the existing lines open and enhancing rail that actually makes sense and has a chance of surviving and growing, like DART, Luas, etc.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,350 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Let me correct this for you:
    no they actually rather their cars instead of waiting half an hour for a bus or train, a car is more comfortable and one can go where they want when they want, a bus or train has a fixed destination and is slow shaky and uncomfortable.


  • Registered Users Posts: 28,928 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    bk wrote: »
    A commuter just wants to get from A to B in the most environmentally friendly way possible[/quot]
    in fairness most people couldn't care a less about environmental friendlyness.
    bk wrote: »
    If you are a fan of rail, you should be focused on trying to keep the existing lines open and enhancing rail that actually makes sense and has a chance of surviving and growing, like DART, Luas, etc.[/quot]
    all our rail network bar the WRC makes sense, it just needed and still needs somebody running things properly who will do what it takes to attract people to it, along with bring all the lines up to the highest possible speed and a lot more.
    bk wrote: »
    Let me correct this for you:
    no need, only busses, and commuter railcars on long journeys are rickity and uncomfortable

    shut down alcohol action ireland now! end MUP today!



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 222 ✭✭The Idyl Race


    bk wrote: »
    This is the difference between a person who is an ideological fan of a particular mode of transport and an actual commuter who actually makes these journeys.

    A commuter couldn't care less if it is a bus, train, car, donkey or teleporter that gets them from A to B. A commuter just wants to get from A to B in the quickest, cheapest, most comfortable and environmentally friendly way possible *.

    * Obviously not all are possible at the same time, different people have different balances. For instance someone might opt for a slightly longer journey if it was significantly cheaper.

    A to B means from their door to their destination. Ignore that and you end up with a line that no one uses.



    I'm not sure a study has ever been done, but it certainly wouldn't be faster then by car. Best case scenario it might equal the bus, but very unlikely to surpass it.

    But then why spend 10's of millions more to do this? Do you really think it would lead to any significant increase in passenger numbers. I don't, it would just be another big waste of money.

    Read between the lines (no pun intended!) of what the minister said above. It is hilarious seeing people asking for even more money to be spent on the WRC when it is clear that the minister is saying that the recently opened line and other branch lines are in danger of being closed!!

    If you are a fan of rail, you should be focused on trying to keep the existing lines open and enhancing rail that actually makes sense and has a chance of surviving and growing, like DART, Luas, etc.

    Ah yes, the bane of this country, people telling others what they ought to think.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,350 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    no need, only busses, and commuter railcars on long journeys are rickity and uncomfortable

    I find the Mark 4's to Cork to be far more bumpy, rickity and noisy then the bus coaches to Cork.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,288 ✭✭✭pigtown


    bk wrote: »
    This is the difference between a person who is an ideological fan of a particular mode of transport and an actual commuter who actually makes these journeys.

    A commuter couldn't care less if it is a bus, train, car, donkey or teleporter that gets them from A to B. A commuter just wants to get from A to B in the quickest, cheapest, most comfortable and environmentally friendly way possible *.

    * Obviously not all are possible at the same time, different people have different balances. For instance someone might opt for a slightly longer journey if it was significantly cheaper.

    A to B means from their door to their destination. Ignore that and you end up with a line that no one uses.

    You're probably right. I always used to to dream of having the option of getting the train or a bus instead of driving but I suppose I don't know would any theoretical public transport have been better than my car.
    bk wrote: »
    I'm not sure a study has ever been done, but it certainly wouldn't be faster then by car. Best case scenario it might equal the bus, but very unlikely to surpass it.

    But then why spend 10's of millions more to do this? Do you really think it would lead to any significant increase in passenger numbers. I don't, it would just be another big waste of money.

    I think it has the potential to lead to a significant increase in passengers but I'd prefer to actually know if something was beneficial before I dismiss it out of hand. It's always possible that it may be worth doing.
    Read between the lines (no pun intended!) of what the minister said above. It is hilarious seeing people asking for even more money to be spent on the WRC when it is clear that the minister is saying that the recently opened line and other branch lines are in danger of being closed!!
    Define 'more money'. Of course major realignment work won't be carried out but I wouldn't be against investigating whether smaller projects would be worth while, such as passing loops or eliminating some gradients, or even upgrading the bridges in Limerick and Ennis to allow greater speeds across them. Again I stress that every possible improvement should be investigated and analysed before actually carry them out.
    bk wrote: »
    If you are a fan of rail, you should be focused on trying to keep the existing lines open and enhancing rail that actually makes sense and has a chance of surviving and growing, like DART, Luas, etc.

    I am a fan of rail and I would have thought that providing a direct rail link between the second and third cities in the state could make sense.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,124 ✭✭✭goingnowhere


    pigtown wrote: »
    I am a fan of rail and I would have thought that providing a direct rail link between the second and third cities in the state could make sense.
    Last time I checked there was a direct rail link between Limerick and Cork, no need to reverse

    You can change at Limerick junction like everyone doing Limerick Dublin


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    pigtown wrote: »
    I am a fan of rail and I would have thought that providing a direct rail link between the second and third cities in the state could make sense.

    I agree, is there not already a loop in Limerick Junction station to allow direct connections from the Limerick line to the Cork line and vice versa.????? Limerick to Cork is a Heavy Rail alignment, capable of decent speeds, and some class of a business case can be made for it.

    There is a special Cork - Limerick rail thread here > http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=65307180 for you!


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭galwaycyclist


    coylemj wrote: »
    Spend money? No they won't.

    Walkers (and hill walkers) are the bottom of the pile as far as tourism goes, they bring all their own food, will not use regular B&Bs or hotels (they insist on cheap hostel accommodation) and generally spend SFA.

    Think I better deal with this. The key target market for the Greenways will be cycling tourists. The old Bord Failte did a study on activity tourists back in the 1990s and found that cycling tourists spent more per capita than golfers, anglers or equestrians.

    This is from a briefing note from the Netherlands Ministry of Foreign Affairs

    www.cbi.eu/system/files/marketintel/2011_Cycling_tourism_in_Germany.pdf
    Cycling has become one of the most popular holiday activities, besides the traditional outdoor ones, such as hiking, climbing and trekking. More than one in every five cycling EU tourists is German. Around 5.6 million Germans take a cycling holiday yearly and around 21% of Germans have taken a cycling holiday once. The German domestic cycling tourism market has annual sales of more than €9 billion and is a major growth market.

    So the political leaders on the Western Seaboard would happily turn their noses up at a slice of a market worth €9 billion in one European country alone?


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