Buggy V Wheelchair: court rules in UK

Conway635 · 25-09-2013 9:23pm #1

This has come up here a few times.

Now it has gone to court in the UK, the the ruling is in (County Court - so likely could be appealed several times over).

http://www.unity-law.co.uk/news.htm?id=2139

A short section:

In a 20 page Judgment, Recorder Isaacs dissected the approach taken by First Bus Group (and in place with many other bus companies) in failing to keep the wheelchair space free for wheelchair users, and concluded that:
“ … the system of priority given to wheelchair users should be enforced as a matter not of request, to any non-disabled user of the wheelchair space, but of requirement…”

He went on to note that:
“ just as there are conditions of carriage which forbid smoking, making a nuisance or other “anti-social” behaviour on the pain of being asked to leave the bus then a refusal to accede to a requirement to vacate the space could have similar consequences. In my view, once the system had been advertised and in place there would be unlikely to be caused any disruption or confrontation as all passengers would know where they were. Although such a policy might inconvenience a mother with a buggy that, I am afraid, is a consequence of the protection which Parliament has chosen to give to disabled wheelchair users and not to non-disabled mothers with buggies.”

Interesting stuff indeed! I wonder if this will ever come to court in this country . . .

Also on BBC: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-24214346

C635

AlekSmart · 25-09-2013 10:29pm

It will most surely arise here Conway635.

This judgement has surprised many within the Industry and has the potential to cause immediate aggrevation on most "accessible" City Bus services (Operators continuing to use Older Vehicles are magnificently aloof from it all

)

In this case First Group were operating to their understanding of the Equal Status/Disability Act 2000.
They had advice,largely similar to what BAC has had,to the effect that an able-bodied fare paying customer occupying the "Space" had priority over a disabled person not yet on the bus.

BAC's understanding was altered in the face of an Equality Officer's findings in 2010(?) which directly challenged the long held view that the Wheelchair Space was primarily for...Wheelchairs.

It is patently unfair and largely unworkable to now have individual companies acting as enforcers in the absence of actual leglislation.

Legislate to the effect that a Wheelchair Bound person has Absolute priority to the Wheelchair Space and that an able bodied person,refusing to vacate the spot,CAN be removed from the Bus legally.

Make it Clear and the rest will follow easily...however it is not how we like to do this sort of stuff...hence the fudging of almost every policy decision we require.....Give me a Ryanair style policy anyday.

the groutch · 25-09-2013 11:14pm

unfortunately DB seemed to have already buckled on this situation.
I've seen a few new buses where seats beside the stairwell have been removed and replaced with a designated buggy area with fold-down seat.
another cop out instead of tackling the issue head on.

26-09-2013 5:34am

the groutch wrote: »

unfortunately DB seemed to have already buckled on this situation.
I've seen a few new buses where seats beside the stairwell have been removed and replaced with a designated buggy area with fold-down seat.
another cop out instead of tackling the issue head on.

How is having the floor space a cop-out? I've seen pics of Scottish buses with this kind of set-up, looks the best set up and easy to convert current buses to this configuration.

corktina · 26-09-2013 8:15am

I forsee a return to Standee buses like I grew up with...known as "Cattle trucks" they had a large standing area capable of holding 20 or even 30 "standees" and loads of room for wheelchairs and buggies. Seats are for wimps

the groutch · 26-09-2013 10:58am

Deleted User wrote: »

How is having the floor space a cop-out? I've seen pics of Scottish buses with this kind of set-up, looks the best set up and easy to convert current buses to this configuration.

they're effectively rewarding them for taking disabled peoples' space by giving them their own undeserved designated space at the expense of what would mostly be elderly passengers using those seats downstairs.

AlekSmart · 26-09-2013 11:37am

the groutch wrote: »

unfortunately DB seemed to have already buckled on this situation.
I've seen a few new buses where seats beside the stairwell have been removed and replaced with a designated buggy area with fold-down seat.
another cop out instead of tackling the issue head on.

The specification of ALL new vehicles for NTA licenced services is now the NTA's responsibility,thus the latest GT class have the upgraded information signage,audio announcements and extra buggy space.

I would suspect that few,if any commercially minded Operators would specify such items of their own free will.

(Interestingly,it is worth noting that TfL policy is to remove ALL Flip-Down seating on buses in London....WAY too many claims due to trapped appendages and other incidents with their mechanism...this will take a little time to percolate down to Dún Scéine)

Conway635 · 26-09-2013 11:40am

You have to admire the judge's boundless sense of optimism when he says that if the rules were set and publicised:

"would be unlikely to be caused any disruption or confrontation as all passengers would know where they were."

Methinks real life passengers standing eyeball to eyeball over buggies would not be quite as compliant as that :-)

C635

AlekSmart · 26-09-2013 11:49am

Conway635 wrote: »

You have to admire the judge's boundless sense of optimism when he says that if the rules were set and publicised:

"would be unlikely to be caused any disruption or confrontation as all passengers would know where they were."

Methinks real life passengers standing eyeball to eyeball over buggies would not be quite as compliant as that :-)

C635

It's also worth pointing to what is now,an all too normal Central London Bus journey,whereby an unlimited number of buggies all cram on to the buses,totally blocking access to both the rear of the bus,the centre doors and,most importantly,the Upper Saloon...this leads to many journeys operating at approximately half capacity as the London Bus Driver usually will not have half the engagement with his/her customers that a Dublin Bus Driver has.

The problem,rapidly worsening,is that the Buggies are now expanding in size and complexity,with the abilities of their owners to operate them reducing at a similar rate.

The other notion,fostered by several UK companies PR campaigns of "Buggy-Buses",is that individuals in possession of such equipment are somehow or other thus "Prioritized"....A nice notion,but not quite at one with a universal access Public Transport System intended to be reasonably utilized by EVERYBODY.

Conway635 · 26-09-2013 1:07pm

AlekSmart wrote: »

The other notion,fostered by several UK companies PR campaigns of "Buggy-Buses",

Wasn't Albert Reynolds the Minister For Buggy Buses?

John_C · 26-09-2013 1:23pm

Conway635 wrote: »

You have to admire the judge's boundless sense of optimism when he says that if the rules were set and publicised:

"would be unlikely to be caused any disruption or confrontation as all passengers would know where they were."

Methinks real life passengers standing eyeball to eyeball over buggies would not be quite as compliant as that :-)

C635

And his use of the phrase 'mothers with buggies' as though no fathers or other adults ever use a buggy.

Buggy V Wheelchair: court rules in UK

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