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Drive-by shootings by British Army in Northern Ireland

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  • #272
    Sand
    Registered Users Posts: 12,468 ✭✭✭✭Sand


    Still no updates on the PSNI investigation. The book "MRF Shadow Troop" is still unavailable on Amazon - presumably the authors balls withdrew somewhere under his stomach after the PSNI got involved and he realised big man talk that impressed the lads down in the pub could get him in a bit of trouble. Seems the story stopped dead in November 2013.

    Oh well, as I predicted earlier people will still refer the wild headline claims as if they were proven despite no evidence whatsoever.


  • #273
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Sand wrote: »
    Still no updates on the PSNI investigation. The book "MRF Shadow Troop" is still unavailable on Amazon - presumably the authors balls withdrew somewhere under his stomach after the PSNI got involved and he realised big man talk that impressed the lads down in the pub could get him in a bit of trouble. Seems the story stopped dead in November 2013.
    .

    Rreally?

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/MRF-Shadow-Troop-intelligence-undercover/dp/1909609021/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1402606900&sr=8-1&keywords=mrf+shadow+troop

    http://www.amazon.com/MRF-Shadow-Troop-intelligence-undercover/dp/1909609021/ref=tmm_pap_title_0


  • #274
    Sand
    Registered Users Posts: 12,468 ✭✭✭✭Sand


    Good point - Its listed as unavailable under the title "Shadow Troop", but I presume there was a rebranding. I guess you can still spend your money on a detailed confession if you really believe this Simon Cursey chap is a reliable witness...or maybe not.
    Could not finish it. Even for some of excuses for not giving detail story Is so vague. I'm sure this type of thing went on but Don't think author was party of it.
    It was a nothing book. It was like an old style cowboy book. I think the man lives in a fantasy land
    If you hope to read about the MRF, give this missive a miss. If you are interested in weapons, JFK, Munich Olympics or PLO you might enjoy it if you are not bored easily. The guy is an idiot a fool and a bigot. Don't waste your money.....
    very biased. From one who grew up in Belfast he has no universal view of the situation that eventually grew into the troubles. sounds like the author would have been trigger happy in any situation. sad really. People like him added to the troubles, they did not provide any solution.


  • #275
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Sand wrote: »
    Good point - Its listed as unavailable under the title "Shadow Troop", but I presume there was a rebranding. I guess you can still spend your money on a detailed confession if you really believe this Simon Cursey chap is a reliable witness...or maybe not.

    Wow - Amazon reviews!!!!!!!!!!! That's even more convincing that the Anonymous armed forces veteran you had earlier.


  • #276
    Sand
    Registered Users Posts: 12,468 ✭✭✭✭Sand


    Well Nodin, seeing as you think the book and author are credible are you going to pick up a copy? Surely a few quid is cheap for a detailed confession by a British army death squad?


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  • #277
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Sand wrote: »
    Well Nodin, seeing as you think the book and author are credible are you going to pick up a copy? Surely a few quid is cheap for a detailed confession by a British army death squad?

    I may well do so. It would be interesting to compare the mentality with that exhibited in other territories where the same tactics were employed.


  • #278
    junder
    Registered Users Posts: 2,706 ✭✭✭junder


    I post on a military site and the topic of this book came up, the author made the mistake of posting on the thread, he was torn a new one, the book is utter bollocks, anybody with any military experience, regardless of what nation they served can see that


  • #279
    maccored
    Registered Users Posts: 10,660 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    to be fair that book seems to have far more decent reviews that crap ones.
    Sand wrote: »
    Well Nodin, seeing as you think the book and author are credible are you going to pick up a copy? Surely a few quid is cheap for a detailed confession by a British army death squad?


  • #280
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    junder wrote: »
    I post on a military site and the topic of this book came up, the author made the mistake of posting on the thread, he was torn a new one, the book is utter bollocks, anybody with any military experience, regardless of what nation they served can see that

    Yet the British did employ such a unit in Belfast and tactics in the early 1970's, much as they did in Aden (where the SAS were employed to much the same purpose), Burma, Kenya etc.


  • #281
    junder
    Registered Users Posts: 2,706 ✭✭✭junder


    Nodin wrote: »
    Yet the British did employ such a unit in Belfast and tactics in the early 1970's, much as they did in Aden (where the SAS were employed to much the same purpose), Burma, Kenya etc.

    The british army had many specialist units non of which where tasked to do indiscriminate drive by's that was left to the locals ( on sides)


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  • #282
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    junder wrote: »
    The british army had many specialist units non of which where tasked to do indiscriminate drive by's that was left to the locals ( on sides)

    Not really
    http://books.google.ie/books?id=SvRhIh5sbWAC&pg=PA280&lpg=PA280&dq=british+hit+squads+aden&source=bl&ots=d5c92itIH5&sig=TK4FnFi2voDedeuNXB5xdpLIZrU&hl=en&sa=X&ei=QOueU9_dJoLy7Abg04HYCQ&ved=0CFsQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=british%20hit%20squads%20aden&f=false

    http://www.brh.org.uk/site/articles/hidden-histories-british-state-revealed-2013/


  • #283
    Sand
    Registered Users Posts: 12,468 ✭✭✭✭Sand


    I saw an update on the Panorama BBC investigation into the MRF - given its been close to 9 months I was hopeful we would see some arrests of this Murder Death Kill squad that was apparently roaming the streets.

    However, it was just a news story on BBC incompetence - apparently they sent the files they claim to have had on the MRF to the target of another Panorama investigation, exposing the personal details of at least one MRF member in the process. Good to know the BBC is a competent, professional organisation. First they whip up a wave of hysteria against this MRF, then they send out personal details to assist anyone interested in righting perceived wrongs.


  • #284
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Sand wrote: »
    I saw an update on the Panorama BBC investigation into the MRF - given its been close to 9 months I was hopeful we would see some arrests of this Murder Death Kill squad that was apparently roaming the streets.

    However, it was just a news story on BBC incompetence - apparently they sent the files they claim to have had on the MRF to the target of another Panorama investigation, exposing the personal details of at least one MRF member in the process. Good to know the BBC is a competent, professional organisation. First they whip up a wave of hysteria against this MRF, then they send out personal details to assist anyone interested in righting perceived wrongs.


    .....given that we've never seen arrests from bloody Sunday and any number of other incidents from all sides, I'm not sure what makes you "hopeful" .


  • #285
    Sand
    Registered Users Posts: 12,468 ✭✭✭✭Sand


    Well, we were widely assured members of the unit had confessed on TV. Surely, with a full and complete confession on TV, and a written confession printed and on sale in the shops it shouldn't really require too much police work to get some arrests made? Right?


  • #286
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Sand wrote: »
    Well, we were widely assured members of the unit had confessed on TV. Surely, with a full and complete confession on TV, and a written confession printed and on sale in the shops it shouldn't really require too much police work to get some arrests made? Right?


    ....which presumes any number of things, first and foremost an interest in prosecution.


  • #287
    Sand
    Registered Users Posts: 12,468 ✭✭✭✭Sand


    That's a wonderfully circular persecution complex - the absence of evidence of any conspiracy is in fact evidence of the conspiracy. Right? Come on Nodin, you're smarter than this.

    The highest probability is that a bunch of big mouth Walter Mitty characters blagged their way onto Panorma, telling the gullible reporters exciting, scandalous and untrue tales of taking the gloves off, of fighting terror with terror and being the biggest, baddest mean men around. The sort of tales that let these lads think they were in power and in control, when in reality they were just numbers in a system. Panorama lapped it up because the BBC is almost genetically engineered to lap up these sort of conspiracy tales. Big and bold headlines were put out, with absolutely nothing to back them, and so far...no evidence has meant no arrests, no charges and no convictions.


  • #288
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Sand wrote: »
    That's a wonderfully circular persecution complex - the absence of evidence of any conspiracy is in fact evidence of the conspiracy. Right? Come on Nodin, you're smarter than this..

    It's a fact that a very large number of incidents have occurred to which there have been no prosecutions eg Bloody Sunday, Ballymurphy.
    Sand wrote: »
    The highest probability (............), no charges and no convictions.


    But it was long know that such a group operated, that such policies were enacted elsewhere, thus there's absolutely nothing fantastic about it.


  • #289
    maccored
    Registered Users Posts: 10,660 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    Sand wrote: »
    The highest probability is that a bunch of big mouth Walter Mitty characters blagged their way onto Panorma, telling the gullible reporters exciting, scandalous and untrue tales of taking the gloves off, of fighting terror with terror and being the biggest, baddest mean men around. The sort of tales that let these lads think they were in power and in control, when in reality they were just numbers in a system. Panorama lapped it up because the BBC is almost genetically engineered to lap up these sort of conspiracy tales. Big and bold headlines were put out, with absolutely nothing to back them, and so far...no evidence has meant no arrests, no charges and no convictions.

    I just want to make sure Im on the right page here. Does what you said above mean you don't believe the MRF existed and done the things they are meant to have done? I've read back your posts and I'm having a hard time pinning down exactly what you are saying, overall, as far as the MRF is concerned.


  • #290
    Sand
    Registered Users Posts: 12,468 ✭✭✭✭Sand


    maccored wrote: »
    I just want to make sure Im on the right page here. Does what you said above mean you don't believe the MRF existed and done the things they are meant to have done? I've read back your posts and I'm having a hard time pinning down exactly what you are saying, overall, as far as the MRF is concerned.

    The MRF existing is a matter of record. The matter under dispute is if the MRF was a plain-clothes intelligence gathering unit of the British Army that infiltrated Republican controlled areas and observed activity there. Or a gang of lads with bad hairdos driving around randomly murdering people for no real reason that can be perceived. Other than just being plain evil of course.

    Either is possible - I wasn't there. Maybe they were the <insert bad name here> of the earth. But, in the absence of *any* credible evidence, the former seems more likely than the latter. I'd have thought Provo's would be willing to give them the benefit of the doubt - many Provos still seem utterly convinced that the Provos never deliberately targeted civilians. Despite vast amounts of evidence that they did.

    If they cant see any evidence for that, I find it hard to believe they can find any convincing evidence that the MRF was some sort of death squad.


  • #291
    maccored
    Registered Users Posts: 10,660 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    I thought the whole point of the MRF was to be "a plain-clothes intelligence gathering unit of the British Army that infiltrated Republican controlled areas and observed activity there"?

    Feel free to show us your definitive proof that provos purposefully targeted civilians whenever you want. That's if you actually have any that is. If it's just waffle, then dont worry about it.


    Sand wrote: »
    The MRF existing is a matter of record. The matter under dispute is if the MRF was a plain-clothes intelligence gathering unit of the British Army that infiltrated Republican controlled areas and observed activity there. Or a gang of lads with bad hairdos driving around randomly murdering people for no real reason that can be perceived. Other than just being plain evil of course.

    Either is possible - I wasn't there. Maybe they were the <insert bad name here> of the earth. But, in the absence of *any* credible evidence, the former seems more likely than the latter. I'd have thought Provo's would be willing to give them the benefit of the doubt - many Provos still seem utterly convinced that the Provos never deliberately targeted civilians. Despite vast amounts of evidence that they did.

    If they cant see any evidence for that, I find it hard to believe they can find any convincing evidence that the MRF was some sort of death squad.


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  • #292
    maccored
    Registered Users Posts: 10,660 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    somebody may let Amnesty International know too btw, since they have made calls to have the MRF investigated.


  • #293
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Sand wrote: »
    The MRF existing is a matter of record. The matter under dispute is if the MRF was a plain-clothes intelligence gathering unit of the British Army that infiltrated Republican controlled areas and observed activity there. Or a gang of lads with bad hairdos driving around randomly murdering people for no real reason that can be perceived. Other than just being plain evil of course.
    .

    Bumping off males of arms bearing age to intimidate the local populace is a well known way of maintaining control and was applied throughout the 'Empire'.


  • #294
    Sand
    Registered Users Posts: 12,468 ✭✭✭✭Sand


    maccored wrote: »
    I thought the whole point of the MRF was to be "a plain-clothes intelligence gathering unit of the British Army that infiltrated Republican controlled areas and observed activity there"?

    Well, another theory is that they were a death squad out murdering people at random. At this point I give more weight to the "plain-clothes intelligence gathering unit" theory.
    Feel free to show us your definitive proof that provos purposefully targeted civilians whenever you want. That's if you actually have any that is. If it's just waffle, then dont worry about it.

    Thank you for demonstrating my point.

    @Nodin
    Bumping off males of arms bearing age to intimidate the local populace is a well known way of maintaining control and was applied throughout the 'Empire'.

    That doesn't even approach the minimum standard for evidence. I could make a similar supposition about Provos having solid motives to intimidate and control the Protestant majority by murdering Protestants, particularly farmers in border areas, and I doubt either you or Maccored would acknowledge that it was any sort of evidence that the Provos deliberately targeted civilians.

    You lads are fairly inconsistent when it comes to standards of evidence. You don't need any evidence at all to be convinced of wrongdoing by "them" but cant seem to find any evidence of all of wrongdoing by "us".


  • #295
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Sand wrote: »
    Well, another (..........)of wrongdoing by "us".

    So the reason you keep going on about this is actually to get a dig in at the Provos then. I was wondering there.


  • #296
    Fr. Ned
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,589 ✭✭✭Fr. Ned


    Nodin wrote: »
    So the reason you keep going on about this is actually to get a dig in at the Provos then. I was wondering there.

    There are people on this and other forums who would actually apologise to the British for acts of terrorism like the Dublin/Monaghan bombings.
    Acts of terrorism enabled by British security forces.

    It's a certain mindset some people have.


  • #297
    Sand
    Registered Users Posts: 12,468 ✭✭✭✭Sand


    Nodin wrote: »
    So the reason you keep going on about this is actually to get a dig in at the Provos then. I was wondering there.

    Nah, the reason I keep going on about it is that for the best part of a month people completely lost the plot over wild claims. And as I gently pointed out then, and since without any actual evidence to support those wild claims.

    What makes it very interesting is many of those absolutely persuaded of the wild, so far baseless claims are very hard to convince of even the most minor, well known activities of their favourite brand of Northern Ireland terrorist.

    @Fr. Ned
    There are people on this and other forums who would actually apologise to the British for acts of terrorism like the Dublin/Monaghan bombings.

    Well, I'd rather they apologise to the victims of the Dublin/Monaghan bombings first. Not clear what the British would be owed an apology over in that case.


  • #298
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Sand wrote: »
    Nah, the reason I keep going on about it is that for the best part of a month people completely lost the plot over wild claims. And as I gently pointed out then, and since without any actual evidence to support those wild claims.

    What makes it very interesting is many of those absolutely persuaded of the wild, so far baseless claims are very hard to convince of even the most minor, well known activities of their favourite brand of Northern Ireland terrorist.

    I'd be more convinced you weren't trying to get a dig in if you didn't try to get a dig in while trying to convince me you weren't doing so, if you follow me.


  • #299
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    maccored wrote: »
    Feel free to show us your definitive proof that provos purposefully targeted civilians whenever you want. That's if you actually have any that is. If it's just waffle, then dont worry about it.

    Birmingham pub bombings.
    Second Warrington bomb
    Harrods bomb
    Manchester bomb
    Le Mons bomb
    Bloody Friday

    How much more would you like?


  • #300
    pO1Neil
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 354 ✭✭pO1Neil


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    Birmingham pub bombings.
    Second Warrington bomb
    Harrods bomb
    Manchester bomb
    Le Mons bomb
    Bloody Friday

    How much more would you like?

    Other than the Birmingham bombings (which I'm not convinced was carried out by the IRA) the rest were not "targeted" at civilians. The others were aimed at infrastructure & causing economic damage not civilian damage. You have to be honest with yourself first before you can try to win people over to your point view. The Kingsmill massacre was a real deliberate attempt by Republicans to harm civilians or the Darkley killings by the Catholic Reaction Force or the Orange Cross pub killings carried out by the IPLO.


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  • #301
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    pO1Neil wrote: »
    Other than the Birmingham bombings (which I'm not convinced was carried out by the IRA) the rest were not "targeted" at civilians. The others were aimed at infrastructure & causing economic damage not civilian damage. You have to be honest with yourself first before you can try to win people over to your point view. The Kingsmill massacre was a real deliberate attempt by Republicans to harm civilians or the Darkley killings by the Catholic Reaction Force or the Orange Cross pub killings carried out by the IPLO.

    Why are you not convinced the IRA carried outbtge Birmingham pub bombings?

    Also, why were all those places bombed at the busiest time of day? The Warrington bombs (note plural) went off outside a MacDonald's on a Saturday lunchtime. What infrastructure or economic damage did that cause that would not have been caused at 3am on a Tuesday?


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