RTE Announce FTA Saorsat service

radiowaves · 03-04-2014 7:30pm

Apogee wrote: »

I'd imagine they were well aware that the chances of success were minimal, but fair play for giving it a go nonetheless.

I'd also imagine they'll be very grateful to Watty for the advise :cool:

phelixoflaherty · 03-04-2014 9:40pm

phelixoflaherty wrote: »

Spoke to soon.

Can use saorsat in NON FREESAT, and can see the channells in the raydon channel editor list,

But when I save and restart channel editor It just stays there waiting for the system to come backup, and I can see that the humax has restarted.

Anyone have a solution?
Thanks

Sorted by deleting channels on old FEC setting and rescanning on new FEC settings.

Thanks to Delta lima

watty · 04-04-2014 12:56pm

zg3409 wrote: »

From the screenshot of the spectrum, it looks as if they did not pick up the specific jamming carrier but rather 4 internet carriers from one spot and another 4 carriers from a different spot..

I seriously doubt any carrier is there purely to "jam". It will be for something.

Copyerselveson · 04-04-2014 1:02pm

watty wrote: »

I seriously doubt any carrier is there purely to "jam". It will be for something.

Would it make a difference to 2RN if those carriers weren't there?

zg3409 · 04-04-2014 2:22pm

watty wrote: »

I seriously doubt any carrier is there purely to "jam". It will be for something.

The east Scottish beam had a DVB-S (as opposed to DVB-S2) carrier with a totally blank transport stream (no data). It seems to be very co-incidental that they happen to use the exact same frequency at adjacent target spots, which just happens to prove their targeting skills.

watty · 04-04-2014 10:15pm

Copyerselveson wrote: »

Would it make a difference to 2RN if those carriers weren't there?

I doubt it.

compared with people in Mainland UK putting N.I. Address in their Sky Sub.

In the longer term all the spots will be doing something. We knew the parameters of this satellite pretty much the day that 2RN/RTE NL / RTE proposed publicly they would use it.

(click to article)

This forecast was in 2010. To expect to somehow circumvent physics and have mainland UK coverage was daft. Eutelsat can put whatever they want on spots. It is NOT "jamming". The intention is to sell full capacity of every spot.

There is a principle in satellite usage that once a frequency band and location is allocated it MUST be occupied or a competitor can occupy it. It's not like some terrestrial licences were it can be "bought" and do nothing. Though that has happened in Iceland, Sweden and Ireland and there is usually and expiry date where if a service isn't implemented to a given standard the licence reverts to the regulator.

So they probably have to have every spot active in some fashion. Also how "friendly" would it be if people mistakenly purchased gear in parts of Scotland, Wales and England on edge of Irish Spot and then suddenly it was gone due to more services launching on Scottish and French spots?

So if they have to have a carrier to indicate occupancy on spots with not yet traffic (and there are MANY sorts of telemetry that doesn't show on a satellite meter!) it makes sense to align with Saorsat carrier(s).

Anyway if it's not TV (Telemetry) your satellite meter will only tell you it's a carrier, so how can you know it's doing nothing?

Hotblack Desiato · 05-04-2014 12:43am

watty wrote: »

They are not "interfering spots".

Well, they're unwanted (in this case) signal preventing reception of the wanted signal. I don't know what else to call it? The fact that the signal you don't want may be useful to others is not much consolation to you!

I think the point of that German video (if it had a point!) was to show that even a monstrously large dish doesn't help with out of area reception on Ka-Sat. I don't know where that DLR site was, but their HQ is in Cologne. You could probably get 28.2E UK/Irl Ku 'spot' beam there on an 80cm dish no problem, yet a 13m dish has no hope of capturing the Ka Irish spot.

zg3409 · 05-04-2014 3:05pm

watty wrote: »

Anyway if it's not TV (Telemetry) your satellite meter will only tell you it's a carrier, so how can you know it's doing nothing?

A satellite meter was not used. The transport stream was "decoded" and found to contain nothing:

http://www.satellites.co.uk/forums/threads/ka-reception-is-a-no-go-so-far-for-me.153007/page-2

The same is true on the TBS card ...which _should_ display the modulated content of the carrier frequency ...but although locks ...nothing on board in the TS stream that the TBS card can identify ..

I suppose the term jamming is a bit strong, while jamming is probably illegal in normal terms actually using a licenced frequency to stop overspill is what is going on, which in effect jams people outside of the prime spot. I agree they would like to see all frequencies in use, and it makes sense to use these "un-needed" transmissions for tests or other useful downlinks.

Has anyone noticed a change in power output on Saorsat with the FEC change? With reports of people losing the signal with FEC updated, it suggests the same output power is in use, but with the different FEC it would mean it's harder to pickup, meaning a slightly larger dish is now needed. My sums give a 2dB larger gain needed than before. My sums give 1/2FEC at 11.5Mbps 2/3 FEC at 15Mbps meaning 3 more Mbps now available for RTE1HD etc. What is the data rate available for both terrestrial muxes combined after FEC?

watty · 05-04-2014 4:13pm

A satellite meter was not used. The transport stream was "decoded" and found to contain nothing:

That assumes a lot!

It could just be something that they thought was MPEG2-TS

in normal terms actually using a licenced frequency to stop overspill is what is going on

Maybe, or maybe not as that is a huge assumption (see earlier post). They have to "occupy" the spots ANYWAY, even if it isn't something specialised that simply isn't decoding correctly. It's even possible to encode telemetry and have fake empty MPEG2-TS stream.
That can be used to analyse performance.
Even an empty MPEG2-TS can be used to monitor performance. That's very important to parametrise Ka Band in the long term and correlate error rate with cosmic background, solar noise, ice crystal scattering etc as well as different kinds of rain.

I did meet the folks doing Ka-sat several times (when it was on the ground still). I don't unfortunately have a copy of the power point nor remember all the details. At the time the main interest was for 2 way data. We only were interested in Ku for TV due to time scale (if the TV project had happened it would have been well over a year before Ka-Sat launch).
We never bothered meeting the Hylas folk.

The Cush · 05-04-2014 4:14pm

zg3409 wrote: »

What is the data rate available for both terrestrial muxes combined after FEC?

24.13 Mbit/s per Mux is the useful bitrate figure in any document I've seen for an FEC of 2/3.
27.14 Mbit/s if an FEC of 3/4 was used.

bigVee · 12-04-2014 9:59am

Everything here OK with 80 cm dish on County Antrim coast. Quality reading always varies with weather conditions but I haven't noticed any appreciable differences in recent weeks.

watty · 12-04-2014 7:26pm

It will only be in heavy rain that the FEC change is an issue for people with too small a dish.

Dublin Red Devil · 19-04-2014 3:54pm

Can anyone recommend a good TV

Between 24/32Inch
LED
1080p
Less than €250

watty · 19-04-2014 7:45pm

you mean LED backlit. There are no real LED TVS under maybe €10,000. Some small AMOLED (under 6").

24" is tiny for Widescreen. Unless you are sitting in a shoebox, even 32" is quite small. Most TVs under 37" are only so called HD ready, there are some 32" TVs that are really 1080 native lines though. Very few 24".

This isn't the AV forum but concerned with Satellite Reception and this thread Saorsat in particular. Look at Toshiba, LG, Samsung, Sony in your local shops. It's a bad thing to buy online especially if it fails inside the 2 years (SOGA).

michaelheno · 05-05-2014 12:15pm

i have saorsat dish up and was receiving single fine up to a month ago based in the Beara penn i was using an 80cm dish within the past month or so any rain heavy cloud i loose single just wondering do i need a bigger dish

Miko

radiowaves · 05-05-2014 12:24pm

michaelheno wrote: »

i have saorsat dish up and was receiving single fine up to a month ago based in the Beara penn i was using an 80cm dish within the past month or so any rain heavy cloud i loose single just wondering do i need a bigger dish

Miko

Since the FEC change unfortunately you will.

zg3409 · 06-05-2014 8:53am

michaelheno wrote: »

i have saorsat dish up and was receiving single fine up to a month ago based in the Beara penn i was using an 80cm dish within the past month or so any rain heavy cloud i loose single just wondering do i need a bigger dish

Miko

100cm dish size has always been recommended for the South West. Becuase of the recent FEC change a slightly larger dish may now be needed, but this has not been said officially. The dish must be solid and not fibreglass based. If it is in an exposed area a commerical grade dish would be best. It is very important to get the dish aligned perfectly, and it is a difficult job to do. If you are mounting two LNBs on the one dish the Saorsat LNB should be at the prime focus for maximum signal.

italy2006 · 16-05-2014 9:17pm

i live in southern of iran. i want to get irish channels om eurobird ka 9 degree east.

i have a ka band lnb, besides a dvbs 2 receiver and a 100 cm dish.

i want to know whether i can get these channels?

i heard that for getting ka channels i should buy new generation of stb which support ka band. is it correct or i can get ka channel with my current dvbs 2 receiver?
tnx

Hotblack Desiato · 16-05-2014 9:40pm

There is no chance unfortunately. Even most of Britain is too far away.

Ka-band doesn't work like Ku - the spots are much smaller, and Ka-SAT has a lot of frequency re-use. Unless the Irish spot is closer to you than any other spot using the same frequency then there is no chance of receiving it. This is only the case in Ireland and a small part of west Wales.

watty · 16-05-2014 11:07pm

See
http://www.techtir.ie/saortv/saorsat-coverage

1) If Only Ireland used that spot, you are about x10 to far away.
2) There are about 18 or 19 other spots on the same frequency closer to you.

It's inherently impossible in much closer France, Spain or Germany, never mind Iran.

Most of Iran has no Ka-Sat coverage at all, never mind impossible Irish Spot. There are two spots that give a small piece of Iranian coverage (probably for 2 way Internet, that you probably need Iranian Government permission for), extreme North West Tabriz region to West of Caspian Sea and extreme South east on coast of Arabian Gulf, Bandar region.

Even a Ku band such as 28,2 East I expect is unobtainable in Iran and probably illegal even if you had the 3m to 5m dish that might Work.

I doubt though the Eutelsat Internet services are available in Iran as the Iranian government both operates local jamming and attempts to jam transatlantic traffic using transmitters based in Cuba to interfere with US uplinks.

Iran is the only country in the world jamming other people's Satellite transmissions.

The good news

i heard that for getting ka channels i should buy new generation of stb which support ka band. is it correct or i can get ka channel with my current dvbs 2 receiver?

Your current receiver with a Ka LNB (but there are many kinds and few LNBs do ALL of Ka Band) will work for any Ka that might be available in Iran. You need to enter a calculated "fake" frequency as the true LO figure can't be put in menu.

It's doubtful that there are ANY Ka band TV that can be received in Iran.

warlikedave · 17-05-2014 12:55am

watty wrote: »

I doubt though the Eutelsat Internet services are available in Iran as the Iranian government both operates local jamming and attempts to jam transatlantic traffic using transmitters based in Cuba to interfere with US uplinks.

Iran is the only country in the world jamming other people's Satellite transmissions.

Just asking an honest question here - Where did you get that information from? Iranian jamming capability in Cuba? Please explain if ye can - I am in curious

italy2006 · 17-05-2014 3:31am

A ka spot of eurobird 9 is designed for southern of iran or maybe UAE. my current location is in this spot. i think you mean that although i can get the signal of ka band with current equipments but unfortunately i have no chance of getting irish channels. because these channels dont broadcast for this spt. it means that irish people living in dubai cant get thiese channels? you mean that irish channels are viwable only on ireland and other circular footprints are used for data and internet purposes? i hope u can calrify it.

in case of jamming i would say despite severe legal limitations, most people use sat dishes and it is growing. they couldnt stop it. so dont pay attention too much just on what happened in cuba or other jamming incidents.

watty · 17-05-2014 11:44am

italy2006 wrote: »

Aunfortunately i have no chance of getting irish channels. because these channels dont broadcast for this spt. it means that irish people living in dubai cant get thiese channels? you mean that irish channels are viwable only on ireland and other circular footprints are used for data and internet purposes? i hope u can calrify it.

100% correct. There are 82 spots. The whole idea is that there are only 4 different sets of frequencies, reused 20 times. Massive saving in number of satellites as essentially Ka-Sat can do what used to need TWENTY satellites at different locations.

So indeed every one of 82 spots is different content.

Almost all content is two way Internet (the main company selling it is called Tooway, a pun!).
The Irish spot may have the ONLY Broadcast TV.
There may be Outside Broadcasts (typically only a few hours at most) using Ka-Sat to cheaply link back using the onboard multplexing to switch content on uplink on a spot to downlink on another spot. The "feed" of short duration would only be received on one spot.

A side effect of the frequency reuse and multiple spots from ONE place in orbit is that it doesn't matter how enormous your dish is, the signal can barely be received at a diameter more than 50% of illustrated spot, and as it's Ka band, the same size dish on satellite if there was only one spot would result in about 1/4 size spot compared to Ku band. So if there was ONLY one spot using the Irish frequencies even London would struggle with a 4m approx dish, such a size of dish needs real time Azimuth and Elevation motor tracking of the Satellite and costs maybe over $8,000 for the system.

No-one in Dubai can get Irish TV via Ka-Sat as will be obvious. Nor in London, France, Spain, Germany, Netherlands. etc

watty · 17-05-2014 11:54am

warlikedave wrote: »

Just asking an honest question here - Where did you get that information from? Iranian jamming capability in Cuba? Please explain if ye can - I am in curious

Google
Iran cuba satellite uplink jamming

Been ongoing for years.

The target has been mostly Telstar 12 As it uplinks from USA and downlinks to Europe, North Africa, Middle East, Iran. Uplinks in Europe to other satellites are feed from those too
see maps
http://www.lyngsat-maps.com/t12.html

European beam area uplinks are used to feed Spanish & Portuguese to Americas and Brazil.

The Iranians also have hill top downlink jamming in their own country pointed at their own cities! Less effective than uplink jamming.

zg3409 · 17-05-2014 1:27pm

italy2006 wrote: »

i live in southern of iran. i want to get irish channels

Depending on how your internet is censored you may be able to access some shows on:

http://www.rte.ie/player/

From abroad some shows are missing due to regional restrictions.

http://www.aertv.ie has some Irish channels but I am not sure if it available outside Ireland. They require you to register.

As said if you have an Irish IP address you may be able to access more content, so the above links may not be much use with an Iranian IP.

italy2006 · 17-05-2014 3:04pm

not only it is sensored strictly but also it is vey low speed with maximum of speed for download just 1 mega byte. given these limitations no chance of seeing irish channel online.

italy2006 · 17-05-2014 3:10pm

watty
yes. you are right.
both have done by iran government. at this time they are mostly focused on sending parasites waves on satellite signal especially in big cities. but they stopped satellite jamming after huge pressure from international community.

watty · 17-05-2014 7:44pm

After TEN YEARS !!!

At least 2002 to 2012, maybe more

Good to hear it's stopped.

italy2006 · 17-05-2014 7:48pm

now in one province government requests people to deliver their dish and stb voluntarily to local authorities as an action against soft war.

Pulidog · 19-05-2014 8:07am

Having successfully installed Saorsat at home and enjoyed watching TV from Ireland over the past year or so, I have been approached by a friend of a friend, who would like me to set up Saorsat for him.

Whilst I would have no issue with setting up the system for him, he owns a pub and probably would show GAA, Rabo, Heiniken Cup, League of Ireland, and whatever other sport might be available on RTE & TG4, if the demand was there from his pub patrons. I also understand that there may be some demand for some TG4 output as some of his customers are keen on Traditional music. I don't think they will be queueing out the door to watch Fair City, but you never know?

I know there is some European directive on broadcasting across the continent, but as other bodies may have the rights to these programmes in the UK, does anyone know what sort of legal position would my 'friend of a friend' be in for showing these programmes and would I have any liability as the installer (albeit on a DIY basis).

Some advice would be greatly appreciated.

RTE Announce FTA Saorsat service

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