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Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

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  • Options
    #4742
    eastwest
    Registered Users Posts: 1,610 ✭✭✭eastwest


    serfboard wrote: »
    Why do these three politicians (and plenty of others besides) think that people want to hear this - in other words why is this popular? For that you must concede that West-On-Track have done a great job in convincing people that this is a great idea. Irish politicians are renowned for having their ear to the ground so what is it that they are hearing that convinces them to "jump on the bandwagon"?

    I can understand one aspect of it - people look at a built piece of infrastructure and say that it's a shame it has been let go. The problem is that they haven't, up until now, been convinced that there could be another use for it. Or at least, they are not communicating that to politicians.

    In other words, if politicians are simply reflecting the views/concerns of the electorate, then greenway support groups have not been as successful in the electorate as West On Track were.
    That's all true, and there is no doubt that the greenway campaigners still have to do a bit of persuading, on politicians as well as the public.
    That doesn't explain though why three experienced politicians would peddle information to the voters that they know to be absolutely untrue. MEPs above anybody know that there are no European funds in any pipeline for this rail project, and they also know that the government had clearly stated that they will not repeat the mistake that was made in the case of Ennis Athenry.
    Therefore, they are spreading information ahead of an election that they know to be false. That's cynicism, pure and simple.


  • Options
    #4743
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,072 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    eastwest wrote: »
    1. The country is broke. Not just short of money, we're lumbered with an almost unbelievable level of national and personal debt and a tax burden that is widening all the time to pay for it.

    The country is not broke. This is just not true.


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    #4744
    eastwest
    Registered Users Posts: 1,610 ✭✭✭eastwest


    monument wrote: »
    The country is not broke. This is just not true.

    I suppose it depends on the definition. We have no money, one of the highest per capita levels of debt in the developed world and we are still spending more than we are earning. There is definitely no money for vanity projects. If an individual was in that position, (s)he would be broke.
    I'm happy to replace 'broke' with 'in an almost impossible financial situation' though.


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    #4745
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,072 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    eastwest wrote: »
    I suppose it depends on the definition. We have no money, one of the highest per capita levels of debt in the developed world and we are still spending more than we are earning. There is definitely no money for vanity projects. If an individual was in that position, (s)he would be broke.
    I'm happy to replace 'broke' with 'in an almost impossible financial situation' though.

    Every non-fringe definition puts us at not broke and our credit ratings of recent are at least BBB+ to a low A.

    Countries are not individual and, in any case, individuals with a credit line are not broke.

    I don't think money should be spent on the WRC -- and I'd still hold that view if we has oil money or something like that flowing in.


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    #4746
    westtip
    Registered Users Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    monument wrote: »
    The country is not broke. This is just not true.

    But would you (a) borrow money from this country or (b) if you had it lend it to this country.

    My answer on both counts. No! This country is broke who are you kidding!


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    #4747
    Markcheese
    Registered Users Posts: 8,428 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    Can we afford to waste ANYMORE money on projects that won't give a return, and if the figures are that good some private company could have a crack at it.... But they don't

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • Options
    #4748
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,072 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    westtip wrote: »
    But would you (a) borrow money from this country or (b) if you had it lend it to this country.

    My answer on both counts. No! This country is broke who are you kidding!

    The country is not broke and the bond market is rating Ireland well and thus lending at reasonable rates. The NTMA only last week completed an auction of €1,000 million (€1 billion) ten-year bonds.

    And the demand was nearly three times greater than they were looking for, the NTMA said: "Total bids received amounted to €2,883 million which was 2.9 times the amount on offer".

    http://www.ntma.ie/news/ireland-sells-e1000-million-of-its-10-year-bond-by-auction/


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    #4749
    theKillerBite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 195 ✭✭theKillerBite


    monument wrote: »
    The country is not broke and the bond market is rating Ireland well and thus lending at reasonable rates. The NTMA only last week completed an auction of €1,000 million (€1 billion) ten-year bonds.

    And the demand was nearly three times greater than they were looking for, the NTMA said: "Total bids received amounted to €2,883 million which was 2.9 times the amount on offer".

    http://www.ntma.ie/news/ireland-sells-e1000-million-of-its-10-year-bond-by-auction/

    The country is broke, we're borrowing hand over fist for our day to day spending.

    http://www.tradingeconomics.com/ireland/government-debt-to-gdp


  • Options
    #4750
    Grandeeod
    Registered Users Posts: 12,075 ✭✭✭✭Grandeeod


    monument wrote: »
    Every non-fringe definition puts us at not broke and our credit ratings of recent are at least BBB+ to a low A.

    Countries are not individual and, in any case, individuals with a credit line are not broke.

    I don't think money should be spent on the WRC -- and I'd still hold that view if we has oil money or something like that flowing in.

    Monument, I'm stunned at that assertion. While I appreciate your opinion on not spending money on the WRC, your opinion on the country "not being broke" is oddly misguided in terms of what we can fund public transport wise. Ireland has just about got back to a stage where it can struggle on day to day without the IMF and its strict accounting. However their legacy will continue and public transport investment will suffer.


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    #4751
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,072 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    Grandeeod wrote: »
    Monument, I'm stunned at that assertion. While I appreciate your opinion on not spending money on the WRC, your opinion on the country "not being broke" is oddly misguided in terms of what we can fund public transport wise. Ireland has just about got back to a stage where it can struggle on day to day without the IMF and its strict accounting. However their legacy will continue and public transport investment will suffer.

    In recent months it's been explained in detail on, I think, the Dart Underground here or on the infra board exactly how we can fund large-scale public transport projects. We're also starting a motorway project this year and the EIB are keen on funding transport projects in Ireland with their low interist loans.

    This isn't just internet posters, the minister for transport is eager to push ahead with DU and maybe BRT.

    The push to get public transport to come closer to pay its own way (which is somewhat misguided in some respects, but overdue in others) is an agenda the government would have had regardless, the wider issues just made it a lot easier for them.


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    #4752
    Grandeeod
    Registered Users Posts: 12,075 ✭✭✭✭Grandeeod


    monument wrote: »
    In recent months it's been explained in detail on, I think, the Dart Underground here or on the infra board exactly how we can fund large-scale public transport projects. We're also starting a motorway project this year and the EIB are keen on funding transport projects in Ireland with their low interist loans.

    This isn't just internet posters, the minister for transport is eager to push ahead with DU and maybe BRT.

    The push to get public transport to come closer to pay its own way (which is somewhat misguided in some respects, but overdue in others) is an agenda the government would have had regardless, the wider issues just made it a lot easier for them.
    We're also starting a motorway project this year

    Well a few if we include the M11 and Gort - Tuam, but that's road investment, which is a totally different kettle of fish. I'd call it critical infrastructure when we throw it Newlands Cross. Has to be done and was always ahead of the game.
    In recent months it's been explained in detail on, I think, the Dart Underground here or on the infra board exactly how we can fund large-scale public transport projects.

    Pinch of salt when one judges it against Government interest.
    The push to get public transport to come closer to pay its own way (which is somewhat misguided in some respects, but overdue in others) is an agenda the government would have had regardless, the wider issues just made it a lot easier for them.

    That's a bullet Monument. Since the 1960s we have tried to make CIE pay for itself and failed. Private bus operators and licences from the DOT in respect of it have changed things to a degree. The luas set up was another attempt to introduce a version of public transport that is more conducive to what we need. However, with CIE, whether you like it or not, we are being held back.

    Back on topic somewhat, we are back to 1970s rail investment policy. Borrow and cripple or reinvent the public transport landscape and then pursue investment. So far both are stranded in a no mans land.


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    #4753
    westtip
    Registered Users Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    Actually the debate about the WRC is not have we got the money, nor could we borrow the money, it's a question of would it be morally right to waste the money?


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    #4754
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,072 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    Grandeeod wrote: »
    ..., which is a totally different kettle of fish. I'd call it critical infrastructure ....

    Pinch of salt when one judges it against Government interest.

    I'm not talking about judgment calls, I'm saying the country is not broke.

    Saying we're broke is a very poor reason to not to reinstate the WRC. And there's no reason for other reasons beyond the primary one -- the cost-benefit return of reinstating the railway is very poor (due to lack of population, spread out population, lack of usage of the current WRC section etc).


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    #4755
    theKillerBite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 195 ✭✭theKillerBite


    This thread has been going on ad-nauseum about a cycleway. Has a Cost Benefit Analysis been carried out on this proposal, would local businesses contribute to the cost?


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    #4756
    eastwest
    Registered Users Posts: 1,610 ✭✭✭eastwest


    theKillerBite wrote: »
    This thread has been going on ad-nauseum about a cycleway. Has a Cost Benefit Analysis been carried out on this proposal, would local businesses contribute to the cost?
    It's not the role of businesses to contribute to the cost of basic infrastructure; that's the role of government. Once infrastructure is in place, people can build businesses around it. Same as everywhere.
    The other issue is that many of the businesses that this kind of infrastructure will support don't exist yet. Typically, new businesses emerge and existing enterprises grow on the back of decent trails. You just have to look at the experience in other countries to see the impact of projects like this.
    Funding for a railway branch line like the proposed WRC is not available from Europe, and the government has clearly stated that it doesn't intend to fund it following the failure of the first section, but there is European funding available for cycling infrastructure. The owners of the line are also happy to lend it to this project for as long as is necessary.
    The option being pursued, allowing the line to fall out of public ownership while ignoring the jobs potential of the asset, is just plain daft.


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    #4757
    jmlfc
    Registered Users Posts: 49 ✭jmlfc


    Sure how much is a cycle way going to cost? Will it be worth while? Will it attract users? How do we know? There is already a national cycle way in the country, can anyone here vouch for the numbers of tourists that brings?

    Doubtful!


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    #4758
    clunked
    Registered Users Posts: 368 ✭✭clunked


    jmlfc wrote: »
    Sure how much is a cycle way going to cost? Will it be worth while? Will it attract users? How do we know? There is already a national cycle way in the country, can anyone here vouch for the numbers of tourists that brings?

    Doubtful!
    Funny that you say that. We are going to Westport for a few days over Easter. A prime attraction is the cycleway. More useful than a train that would carry only about 9 passengers per service probably on a free pass anyway.


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    #4759
    eastwest
    Registered Users Posts: 1,610 ✭✭✭eastwest


    jmlfc wrote: »
    Sure how much is a cycle way going to cost? Will it be worth while? Will it attract users? How do we know? There is already a national cycle way in the country, can anyone here vouch for the numbers of tourists that brings?

    Doubtful!
    We don't have any long cycleway in Ireland at all; the only two we have are short and only support weekend breaks or day-trip cycling. Even so, they are important economic drivers in the regions where they are located.
    Connecting the existing greenway at Westport to Sligo via the closed Collooney line would give us one long trail in Ireland. A start, but it would put the west at the forefront of outdoor tourism in Ireland and could ultimately generate thousands of jobs.
    Every other country in Europe has access to long cycle trails, and these support cycle tourism, a product that doesn't exist in Ireland although we have an ideal climate for it with our short winter season. A Failte Ireland report in 2006 identified this deficit, but nothing has been done about it since.
    Here's a figure: A million Germans take cycling holidays each year; other nations pro-rata. Lots of Irish people do too, but they have to go to France or further afield to do it.
    Simple trails such as exist elsewhere cost from €20k/km upwards. The Mayo greenway cost €120,000/km but had issues with land ownership that wouldn't be the case in this instance. The first phase of the Limerick-Kerry trail cost €20,000/km.
    Here's another figure: Germany has 70,000 km of cycle trails, and they're adding more all the time. Are the Germans mad to spend money on trails, or is their country just well governed?
    A final figure: The return for the investment in the Mayo greenway was of the order of 20% p/a.


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    #4760
    westtip
    Registered Users Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    theKillerBite wrote: »
    This thread has been going on ad-nauseum about a cycleway.

    Merely as an alternative to something which quite frankly is never going to happen; a railway. You may see it as ad-nauseum, the arguments have been consistently made to present an idea that is achievable and possible. A railway being restored does not fulfil any of these criteria.
    theKillerBite wrote: »
    Has a Cost Benefit Analysis been carried out on this proposal,

    No - but the evidence not just from the great western greenway but every other example in Europe, NZ and the States appears to suggest for the very little cost a greenway would be would result in significant economic benefit.

    theKillerBite wrote: »
    would local businesses contribute to the cost?

    Probably not. Did they afterall contribute to the Great Western Greenway where they asked to contibute to the white elephant railway that runs from Ennis to Athenry that was apparently going to generate hundreds of jobs (hundreds of passengers would have been good). They will however generate more tax revenue as a direct result of the revenue they generate from the greenway, VAT, PRSI, PAYE taxes etc, they will take people off the dole reducing the social welfare bill, but they are unlikely to actually pay the capital cost; that is the responsibility of Government. So in a way they will pay for the greenway.

    Does this begin to answer your questions.


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    #4761
    westtip
    Registered Users Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    I sometimes wonder. I read this on the West on Track Facebook page this evening, Fairly typical these days that every post or utterance from WoT tends to be about how do we stop the greenway. They seem to have this current crop of councillors in their pockets. We know not why. but fair play to Joe Mellett. A man of integrity.
    Mayo Co. Council Reiterates Stance on protecting railway

    18 March 2014

    No seconder for “study” motion on rail corridor

    Mayo Co. Council has rejected a motion attempting to have a “study” undertaken on the Western Rail Corridor with a view to turning it into a greenway. At the Council meeting of 10th March Councillor Joe Mellett proposed the motion but failed to get a seconder.

    Councillors of all parties as well as 2 independent councillors expressed their opposition to any interference with the railway noting that surveying railway lines was a matter for Iarnród Éireann.

    No councillor of any party was prepared to support the motion and the Cathaoirleach deemed it to have failed.

    This was the third time in 9 months that a motion of this nature had failed to get a seconder at Mayo Co. Council. Coincidentally, a similar situation occurred at Galway Co. Council last month where a pro-greenway motion was also rejected for the third time, with councillors of all parties expressing their unambiguous support for the protection of the railway for future development.


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    #4762
    eastwest
    Registered Users Posts: 1,610 ✭✭✭eastwest


    I would expect nothing less from Mayo County Council. If you speak to many of them privately they will tell you that they agree with Joe Mellett, but they fear that setting face against west on track will lose them votes.
    That's the same mindset that has three MEPs spouting the same nonsense about rail development, even though as MEPs they know full well that the notion of EU funding for a railway is a complete non-runner. If the MEPs are prepared to tell people what they think they want them to hear, is it any surprise that councillors would do the same?
    Politics isn't about honesty, it's about getting elected. Joe Mellett seems to be the sole honourable exception in Mayo.


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    #4763
    westtip
    Registered Users Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    eastwest wrote: »
    I would expect nothing less from Mayo County Council. If you speak to many of them privately they will tell you that they agree with Joe Mellett, but they fear that setting face against west on track will lose them votes.
    That's the same mindset that has three MEPs spouting the same nonsense about rail development, even though as MEPs they know full well that the notion of EU funding for a railway is a complete non-runner. If the MEPs are prepared to tell people what they think they want them to hear, is it any surprise that councillors would do the same?
    Politics isn't about honesty, it's about getting elected. Joe Mellett seems to be the sole honourable exception in Mayo.

    The strange thing is, if public opinion is anything to go by, its the greenway that seems more receptive as an idea to the public these days. I think Joe is backing an election winner on his stance, especially as Swinford Vision for the future survey showed that out of 1200 interviewed/surveyed in 2012 1,000 favoured the greenway. What the the WOT facebook post/news release shows is that they are more focussed on stopping the greenway at all costs than campaigning for the railway, the debate about the greenway is now driving the social media, print media, radio media and the political debate about the western rail corridor. Long may west on track continue to give the greenway campaign exposure! The more negative West on Track are about the greenway and the more the councillors oppose the idea the more coverage the idea gets and the growing tide of support swings towards the greenway, the councillors and west on track are painting themselves into a corner!


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    #4764
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,072 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    Councilors not wanting money spent on a study does not mean they all of them wholeheartedly support the railway idea.


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    #4765
    westtip
    Registered Users Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    monument wrote: »
    Councilors not wanting money spent on a study does not mean they all of them wholeheartedly support the railway idea.

    But Monument it backs up Gerry "not up for discussion" Murray of Sinn Fein who supports West on Track, that they are not prepared to even discuss the issue, all Joe Mellett wanted was a seconder so the issue could be debated. The simple truth is if you speak to many of the councillors privately, which I have, they will tell you they no full well the railway is never going to be re-opened but this one issue seems to have become a thorn in their side, they simply will not act on what they say privately and how they behave on this issue in the council chamber. It is quite bizarre and indeed quite cynical, hopefully after May there may be some fresh blood in the chamber that may not stick to the old cronyism.


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    #4766
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    I wouldn't bank on it! It will take Central Govt action to get a Greenway going I think


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    #4767
    westtip
    Registered Users Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    corktina wrote: »
    I wouldn't bank on it! It will take Central Govt action to get a Greenway going I think

    Corky I'm inclined to agree with you, I wish the Minister would step up to the plate on this one, it's pretty clear what his thinking is.


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    #4768
    jmlfc
    Registered Users Posts: 49 ✭jmlfc


    eastwest wrote: »
    We don't have any long cycleway in Ireland at all; the only two we have are short and only support weekend breaks or day-trip cycling. Even so, they are important economic drivers in the regions where they are located.
    Connecting the existing greenway at Westport to Sligo via the closed Collooney line would give us one long trail in Ireland. A start, but it would put the west at the forefront of outdoor tourism in Ireland and could ultimately generate thousands of jobs.
    Every other country in Europe has access to long cycle trails, and these support cycle tourism, a product that doesn't exist in Ireland although we have an ideal climate for it with our short winter season. A Failte Ireland report in 2006 identified this deficit, but nothing has been done about it since.
    Here's a figure: A million Germans take cycling holidays each year; other nations pro-rata. Lots of Irish people do too, but they have to go to France or further afield to do it.
    Simple trails such as exist elsewhere cost from €20k/km upwards. The Mayo greenway cost €120,000/km but had issues with land ownership that wouldn't be the case in this instance. The first phase of the Limerick-Kerry trail cost €20,000/km.
    Here's another figure: Germany has 70,000 km of cycle trails, and they're adding more all the time. Are the Germans mad to spend money on trails, or is their country just well governed?
    A final figure: The return for the investment in the Mayo greenway was of the order of 20% p/a.


    Hardly...
    We already have a national cycle way within the Republic of Ireland I don't see thousands of tourists flocking here to use it..
    Never see the ferries crammed with bikes with folks going on holiday to cycle


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    #4769
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    Really? When I use the ferry there are always quite a few vehicles with cycles strapped to them.


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    #4770
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,072 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    westtip wrote: »
    But Monument it backs up Gerry "not up for discussion" Murray of Sinn Fein who supports West on Track, that they are not prepared to even discuss the issue, all Joe Mellett wanted was a seconder so the issue could be debated. The simple truth is if you speak to many of the councillors privately, which I have, they will tell you they no full well the railway is never going to be re-opened but this one issue seems to have become a thorn in their side, they simply will not act on what they say privately and how they behave on this issue in the council chamber. It is quite bizarre and indeed quite cynical, hopefully after May there may be some fresh blood in the chamber that may not stick to the old cronyism.

    I was actually talking to a counclor soon after my last post. He confirmed I was correct and that he voted along with others just because they don't want more money spent on studies.

    It was poor timing to try and have the debate after the recent media reports of money being wasted on consultants writing reports on parking in one town in the county.

    The WRC councilors and maybe others also seem to have pushed the idea that agreeing to such a motion would be acting illegally because it's Irish Rail's land.

    It sounds like councilors need more convincing before it's debated.

    jmlfc wrote: »
    Hardly...
    We already have a national cycle way within the Republic of Ireland

    Where would that be?

    jmlfc wrote: »
    I don't see thousands of tourists flocking here to use it..
    Never see the ferries crammed with bikes with folks going on holiday to cycle

    The tourists heading to the camp site down the road from where I live nearly always have bikes attached to their cars/vans/camper vans/ RVs etc


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    #4771
    westtip
    Registered Users Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    Have a look at this submission to Western Regional authority. It doesn't take much working our what could be achieved. First few pages lays out the strategy.


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