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Ruairí Quinn: Teachers don't appreciate gravity of economic crisis

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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,395 ✭✭✭✭mikemac1


    Sure it's like armies across the world ;)

    Run by the senior staff for the benefit of the senior staff


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,798 ✭✭✭doc_17


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    I've seen you post this a few timess. Was there a department that didn't see its' budget increase in those years?

    The increase was not just to teachers pay. We have about 10,500 special needs assistants in the system now, which is a huge increase from 2000. 10-15 years ago lots of students didn't go to school in Ireland.

    And just a stat I'd like to get in is this: Ireand is number 1 in the OECD for graduation at second level. If you think education is expensive, try ignorance (not my quote).

    Yes money has to be saved, personally I don't think anyone in Irish Education (including the Minister) should be earning more than 90K. Not that many are mind you, despite that trash article that was posted.

    There are moves I would like to see in relation to middle management posts that could save money but it's becoming increasingly difficult, and pointless as well to be honest, even posting here anymore as most have there minds made up and dicussion just goes round in circles.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,926 ✭✭✭✭titan18


    doc_17 wrote: »
    And just a stat I'd like to get in is this: Ireand is number 1 in the OECD for graduation at second level. If you think education is expensive, try ignorance (not my quote).

    Tbf, as someone who has recently come through second level education, the standards are sh1t, the LC is marked far too easy, and being able to rote learn doesn't make someone intelligent. It doesn't matter if people are coming out graduating if they're coming out with a poor level of education.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,934 ✭✭✭20Cent


    Like anyone is going to volunteer a paycut, fair play to the teachers sticking up for themselves and a dignified protest to what has been an unprecedented attack. Teachers have done all that has been asked of them in the Croke park agreement, the patronising comments by the minister are not helpful.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,236 ✭✭✭Dannyboy83


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    @gagiteebo
    I would like to know your response to this point please.


  • Registered Users Posts: 46 macbrada


    One of my friends is one of "those" teachers,has been battling breast cancer.

    I empathise with your friend with breast cacer and hope her battle is successful.......however in any other job outside the public sector, a person unable to attend work for health reasons has job protection under EU law but would not receive full pay for more than a finite period. A private sector person in similar circumstances may receive full pay for 2/3 months and thereafter welfare payments.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,798 ✭✭✭doc_17


    sorry Permabear...I got that one wrong. That graph you posted, from the very same file, a few graphs down, is where the confusion arises. My fault.

    Anyway question for you.....

    The Education Budget, from primary right through to third level is approx 8.5billion. What should it be and what would you do to get us there?


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,476 ✭✭✭ardmacha


    We spend more than the OECD average as a percent of GDP, and spending increased by a whopping 83 percent between the years 2000 and 2008.

    Since GDP has gone down and demand for education has gone up, this may be true today. However, Ireland did not spend more than the OECD average as a percent of GDP in 2000 or 2008. Spending did increase, but so did numbers, for instance third level numbers increased by 27% and there was a real decline in spending per student. A continued increase in student numbers is part of the reason why education spending has not dropped. Pay did increase substantially and has been cut.

    If you point is that there was enough money, then that is fair enough. Equally some of that money was put to good use and some of it wasn't, and the latter is not acceptable. In Ireland of the boom, money was spent without any clear objective about what the spending was designed to achieve. The wish to spend money has diminished, but the clarity of the objectives haven't changed much.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,962 ✭✭✭jumpguy


    Pupil-teacher ratios, rural schools, special needs assistance, capital investment all need more money. There is no more money. Frequently you hear teachers bleating that we need more money to fund these things, never do they suggest where the money could come from, or that they might take a 5% pay cut to keep the show on the road (the private sector have been inflicted with a lot worse).

    The Croke Park Agreement was an utter monstrosity, and will probably go down in history as one of the key mistakes in the continuation of our fiscal woes.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,588 ✭✭✭femur61


    jumpguy wrote: »
    The Croke Park Agreement was an utter monstrosity, and will probably go down in history as one of the key mistakes in the continuation of our fiscal woes.

    That and bench marking.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,909 ✭✭✭sarumite


    femur61 wrote: »
    That and bench marking.

    I disagree. Benchmarking was the way forward. While it may have been poorly implemented, the core principles behind it were good. Importunately the government (at the behest of the unions) abandoned benchmarking way too soon, and instead opted for the morally bankrupt CPA. It sent all the wrong messages of we will reward you in the good times and protect you in the bad.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    sarumite wrote: »
    I disagree. Benchmarking was the way forward. While it may have been poorly implemented, the core principles behind it were good. Importunately the government (at the behest of the unions) abandoned benchmarking way too soon, and instead opted for the morally bankrupt CPA. It sent all the wrong messages of we will reward you in the good times and protect you in the bad.

    I'm afraid you're wrong there, benchmarking was a 2 way system that was never applied. What we got was automatic increments - never in benchmarking.

    We need to tell the unions to GFO while we put performance metrics in place - something the unions are utterly against.

    As the scene goes in I'm All Right Jack:
    We do not and cannot accept the principle that incompetence justifies dismissal. That is victimisation.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,206 ✭✭✭carveone


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    I'd like to point out that statistics can be highly misleading. As my brother points out (he's a secondary school teacher - BEng, MSc. HDip in 2007, still temporary), the proportion of men in primary school education is vanishingly small and their age profile is very heavily skewed towards the upper end. When's the last time you saw a male primary school teacher that wasn't a principal?

    Given that profile and the fact that years served sets salary level, then the male average salary is going to be higher than the general - something that's pointed out as "discrimination" by people who don't know any maths.

    Which doesn't invalidate the underlying point, but I thought I'd be pedantic :p
    Permabear wrote:
    This post had been deleted.

    Ahhh! Isn't that interesting use of language! Most people (like the Minister) say "don't have a maths degree" when you say "do not have an appropriate third-level qualification". A Engineering or Science degree is appropriate too.
    I'm not sure what point I'm trying to make there other than the media compain about the wrong things.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,206 ✭✭✭carveone


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    Sorry, it wasn't my intention to say you were. I was just saying that the media do this all the time - 56k vs 64k is automatically discrimination when it isn't.
    They were doing odd comparisons earlier in the week too - I remember someone saying that (I'm possibly paraphrasing) "a manager in Aldi earns 40k therefore we should earn more than that because we are looking after children not produce". Which I found an odd thing to say.

    But I'm dragging the thread off topic.
    Of the teachers defined as not being appropriately qualified to teach maths, 35 percent had a B.Sc. primary degree without a significant mathematics component. Another 34 percent had a degree in commerce or business, again without a significant mathematics component. And 27 percent had a teacher education degree without mathematics.

    My mistake - I was jumping to the conclusion that the BSc degree involved as much maths as the BEng degree - ie: up to my ears in it. I was also equating "BSc" with doing Physics and App Maths which isn't the case. The newspapers however (this is a few months ago) were equating "qualified" with "maths degree" which isn't the case either!


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,476 ✭✭✭ardmacha


    It obviously needs to be lower — at least as low as the OECD average as a percentage of GNP (not GDP).

    No, it doesn't. Ireland's demography differs from other West European states. There is a younger population. Contentions such as the percentage of GNP spend on education or on pensions should be the same are misleading and lead to the present situation of generous pensions (fewer pensioners) and a not especially well funded education system.

    The problem is that on boards and in public debate that those who had bad maths teachers do not require proper measures of these things and those who do know, but have an agenda, can get away with simplistic statements like the above.

    The one thing we need to ensure emerges from this crisis is proper measures of things and a debate based on these, something still far away.
    A recent University of Limerick study showed that 60 percent of post-primary maths teachers under the age of 35 do not have appropriate third-level qualifications for teaching maths.

    Every effort to hire every available qualified maths teacher (and there are some that have gone to Britain etc) and use the CPA to make sure they get where they are needed. The unions have said that the CPA must stay, so the Minister must push its provisions to get this kind of thing done. I think Quinn has some appreciation of this, whether he will push it through is another question.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,909 ✭✭✭sarumite


    ardmacha wrote: »
    Every effort to hire every available qualified maths teacher (and there are some that have gone to Britain etc) and use the CPA to make sure they get where they are needed. The unions have said that the CPA must stay, so the Minister must push its provisions to get this kind of thing done. I think Quinn has some appreciation of this, whether he will push it through is another question.

    Although hiring the qualified maths teachers is made infinitely more difficult because of the CPA. If the minister really wanted to get it done, then choosing the opt out provision within the CPA would accelerate the process of getting the right teachers int he right places.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,723 ✭✭✭nice_guy80


    Just to add to this

    Using the average salary gives a very inaccurate figure for what most teachers earn. It scews it upwards.

    A better figure would be the median. But you never see that mentioned in articles!!! That way it would take into account the large number of younger teachers earning fair less than the average


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,675 ✭✭✭beeftotheheels


    nice_guy80 wrote: »
    Just to add to this

    Using the average salary gives a very inaccurate figure for what most teachers earn. It scews it upwards.

    A better figure would be the median. But you never see that mentioned in articles!!! That way it would take into account the large number of younger teachers earning fair less than the average

    But the average is what many posters on this thread are taking issue with - i.e. the still very large (although somewhat helped by the Feb retirements) number of very highly paid older teachers who's interests the CPA is protecting.

    Many of us have no issue with younger teachers and their earnings. Many of us would like to see a clear out of the more expensive and protected older teachers to free up room in the education budget to hire younger teachers. A flexibility within the education budget to reward good teachers, and not to reward bad ones.

    But that's just not possible with the CPA.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,798 ✭✭✭doc_17


    But even if they did cut pay again that money won't go into hiring new teachers. it'll just be another step to close the gap in the public finances.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,723 ✭✭✭nice_guy80


    But the average is what many posters on this thread are taking issue with - i.e. the still very large (although somewhat helped by the Feb retirements) number of very highly paid older teachers who's interests the CPA is protecting.

    Many of us have no issue with younger teachers and their earnings. Many of us would like to see a clear out of the more expensive and protected older teachers to free up room in the education budget to hire younger teachers. A flexibility within the education budget to reward good teachers, and not to reward bad ones.

    But that's just not possible with the CPA.

    I'd argue strongly that the average salary quoted does not represent what most teachers earn.
    Why?
    Principals and Vice principals' salaries are included.
    Yard supervision allowances are included. That is not actually part of the salary but is paid at the end of the year for extra work. (and its very heavily taxed)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    I am not convinced by the scare stories of unqualfied maths teachers.

    Maths forms a large part of other degrees - commerce, business, engineering, science etc - and many (but not all) who have those degrees are able to teach maths. In fact, I have come across a number of maths graduates whose inability to communicate a simple hello or goodbye makes them unsuitable for teaching.

    To put it a different way, the best mathematicians are probably the worst teachers. The question is how do we create a situation where there is a minimum level of competency in maths required and that above that, the ability to communicate, to teach, to work with children become the attributes we require.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,764 ✭✭✭mickstupp


    Surely they're supposed to learn the communication bit during teacher training? What do they teach them if not how to teach?

    If my kids end up doing honours maths in school I'd personally want them taught by someone with at least a 2.1/1st maths degree. Nothing less. Actually I'd prefer it that way for every subject. Actually I'd prefer if my kids' teachers had Masters degrees... but then it's been wishful thinking since the beginning of this post.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,798 ✭✭✭doc_17


    mickstupp wrote: »
    Surely they're supposed to learn the communication bit during teacher training? What do they teach them if not how to teach?

    If my kids end up doing honours maths in school I'd personally want them taught by someone with at least a 2.1/1st maths degree. Nothing less. Actually I'd prefer it that way for every subject. Actually I'd prefer if my kids' teachers had Masters degrees... but then it's been wishful thinking since the beginning of this post.

    I think it'd be rare for someone with a Masters in Maths to be a teacher! Maybe a lecturer!

    I think you'd want them taught by someone who has a track record of success in teaching it. Now maybe that person might have a 1st in Maths but that is not always the case. Once a great teacher understands something they have the ability to communicate it. Maybe they did Physics/Science/Engineering/Computer Science or Maths but this is when the quality of teacher shines through.

    In the courses mentioned above there is significant mathematical content from a range of fields.

    Although I don't like it when I hear people saying " I did a certain degree and there was a bit of Stats in it therefore I could teach Maths"!


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,909 ✭✭✭sarumite


    doc_17 wrote: »
    I think it'd be rare for someone with a Masters in Maths to be a teacher! Maybe a lecturer!

    I think you'd want them taught by someone who has a track record of success in teaching it. Now maybe that person might have a 1st in Maths but that is not always the case. Once a great teacher understands something they have the ability to communicate it. Maybe they did Physics/Science/Engineering/Computer Science or Maths but this is when the quality of teacher shines through.

    In the courses mentioned above there is significant mathematical content from a range of fields.

    Although I don't like it when I hear people saying " I did a certain degree and there was a bit of Stats in it therefore I could teach Maths"!

    I could agree with that. I did a biochemical engineering course and there was a significant amount of maths involved. Our first year in college was effectively a review of the leaving cert maths course and overall the level of maths we were at by fourth year was well above and beyond what would be necessary for leaving cert maths. (sadly that was over a decade ago and all my maths is now forgotten)

    I do think to encourage people to do maths etc, the leaving cert course could reflect that in the points. I did honours maths and honours geography. I had to work 3 times as hard at the maths than the geography to get the same number of points. Maths was 2 papers, over 6 hours and a more diverse range of topics whereas geography was 1 paper, 3 hours and simply required rote learning.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,675 ✭✭✭beeftotheheels


    Godge wrote: »
    Maths forms a large part of other degrees - commerce, business, engineering, science etc - and many (but not all) who have those degrees are able to teach maths. In fact, I have come across a number of maths graduates whose inability to communicate a simple hello or goodbye makes them unsuitable for teaching.

    No, sums form a large part of degrees like commerce and business. Not maths.

    But that said I do think that the problem is overstated, and that the system self corrects to an extent.

    In my school how many teachers taught maths? Probably 20 of various degree backgrounds.

    But how many taught leaving cert honors maths? One, with a degree in maths, physics and mathematical physics. He rarely taught junior cert science, the biologists and chemists generally did. But he taught leaving cert higher level maths, and indeed referred to the junior cert syllabus, and the ordinary level syllabus, as sums, not maths (and I have inherited my Daddy's prejudices here)

    You really only need the "proper" maths background for the higher level syllabus, and indeed for what that syllabus ought to be.

    While I take your point about mathematicians potentially having difficulty communicating, that it true of any subject and should come out in teacher training.

    The degree should teach the subject, teacher training should deal with effective teaching.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,028 ✭✭✭Lockstep


    Frankly I think it'd be better if we required secondary teachers to have a masters degree in their teaching subject. Not a H.Dip alongside an undergrad degree.

    I'd prefer a system like Finland where teaching is a profession: hard to get into, highly paid and with rigorous criteria.


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