[Morgans]

Its impossible to know for sure. Agree. Just as its impossible to know if he had held it back even further that he would have won.

That he wasnt gaining on the leaders in the final furlong, suggests that the pace slackened and having been ridden to win a race run in a strong gallop, the pacemakers werent good enough to ensure it. Those ridden closer to the pace werent coming back. It is incorrect to say that he was ridden for speed, he was ridden to come late using his stamina.

That and the form of the arc, last years King George and all form on right handed tracks suggests that he ran his race. Yes, the ride may have cost him some distance, but it is a big stretch to think that it cost him the race.

As I said, angles are good to have, and those who think that he is the moral winner of the race (best horse) make the market for those who underestimate the winner and runner up.

[MoscowFlyer]

I have never once said that he WOULD have won, simply saying that in order to have a legit chance of winning he needed to be positioned better. I really don't see how this can be argued against, if you spot your rivals that many lengths then you are going to struggle, this was a Group 1 race after all, these are not mug horses in which you can pick off with ease. Maybe JOB/AOB thought SNA was better than he was, maybe they didn't show enough respect to the other horses, who knows? All I know is that he was never winning from that far back.

[Morgans]

Spotting rivals lengths is nonsense. Races are won from the back daily and in Group 1s. No horse should be held up? It is ALL (100%) about the pace in the race. If it was a strong pace, then sitting at the back is the best place to be.

Its why they have a pacemaker entered. IF they wanted a sprint, no pacemaker. The problem for SNA was that the pace wasn't strong enough to justify the tactics. Entering pacemakers that arent good enough and they are ignored. If they are ignored they are pointless and holding up the horse becomes problematic. It would have been interesting had they sacrificed a better horse - Astrology maybe - to carrying the field further and set stronger fractions. Those close to the pace weren't stretched enough early enough to allow the hold up tactics to pay off. Those criticising the jockey for simply holding up the horse are completely missing the point and are only looking for a scapegoat.

Again, I dont see Ryan Moore getting the same level of abuse for riding the favourite so far back.

On Arc form and last years King George form SNA finished closer than before. I think its as likely that he ran to his best as running below it yesterday.

[MoscowFlyer]

SNA was further back and had more trouble in running but still managed to finish stronger than Sea Moon.

[Morgans]

Yep, but shows how much Sea Moon has to prove at this level. Think its clear that SNA is a better horse.

[MoscowFlyer]

Clearly. I still don't understand why he went off favourite, all the form pointed to the other horses. Very strange.

[the groutch]

so having picked up a 7 day whip ban yesterday, he picks up another two day whip ban today.

<insert facepalm>

[robbie1977]

Young Joseph is continualy putting up overweight nowadays.
Thursday at Leopardstown he was beaten 1/2 a lenght on a fav in a maiden
having put up 2 pounds over which probably cost him the race.

Am I right in presuming the stewerds are'nt doing anything to stop this like fines or bans? I have'nt read anything about fines.

[jjll]

weight problems have started as has already been mentioned i think he will go jumping at some stage

[robbie1977]

Originally Posted by jjll

weight problems have started as has already been mentioned i think he will go jumping at some stage

Ah yea I know that jjll,last season he was regualarly putting up overweight aswell.

Im just wondering what the Irish Stewards procedure on this sort of thing is.
Is there anything in black and white to deal with an incidence of jockeys putting up overweight..
It cant be good for racing if its continuously allowed without some sort of penalty.

If Micheal O'Leary decided to take out an amateurs licence and ride his own horses in the Galway amateurs handicap putting up a stone overweight there would be outrage over it.

Me or you might know how to check if theres any jockey's putting up overweight but new racegoers at the track wont have a clue how to.

[dchris]

Perhaps some serious after-timing. But Joesph O'Brien is a decent jockey.

[convert]

Re. the overweight: I remember hearing a while back that as long as the owner and/or trainer were ok with it, a rider could put up a few pounds overweight without any issue, as long as it was mentioned to the stewards and announced publicly before the race. I can't remember exactly how much weight it was, but it was only a few pounds, nothing like a stone. I'll go look for it now, as I'm curious.

[Imhof Tank]

As far as I know, any amount of overweight can be put up - no need to mention it to the stewards or announce it publically - thats the clerk of the scales' job. Punters with their eyes and ears open can have no complaints in these cases.

Enthusiastic amateur jockey/ owners years ago used to put up stones overweight.

Edit - after a quick google search, I was wrong on this. Since 2010 a max overweight limit of 4lbs applies - any more than that and the jockey cant ride. Pretty sure there was no upper limit before 2010 though

[convert]

Just had a quick look at the point-to-point rules, and it states that rider's may not put up more than 4lbs. However, in special circumstances, and with the permission of the stewards (which must be obtained before the rider presents to the clerk of the scales) a rider may weigh out at more than 4lbs overweight.

[Colonel Sanders]

Didn't one of the Magnier sons put up 6 or 7lbs over weight on Ned Kelly in the Cheltenham bumper years ago?

Didn't know about that rule change but it's no bad thing IMO