Resident in the UK, working for an Irish co - Page 2 - boards.ie
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08-08-2012, 23:49   #16
Mr. Incognito
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcusm View Post
Don't think I agree with this; Irish employer, non resident employee with all duties of employment exercised abroad means that the employer shoud apply for a PAYE exclusion order following which no deductions shoud be made on account of Irish tax or contributions. Fr the prior years, the employee should be seeking a refund of the deductions made on account of non residence and no Irish duties. That refund would have to come from Revenue as the employer must make te deductions in the absence of the exclusion order.
I disagree.

He is not on secondment. He is working an Irish position from home. Home just happens to be the UK.

If he had to come into the office he would still be coming into the Irish office.

http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&...1PWZEETEdW0w4w
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09-08-2012, 15:41   #17
Marcusm
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Originally Posted by Mr. Incognito View Post
I disagree.

He is not on secondment. He is working an Irish position from home. Home just happens to be the UK.

If he had to come into the office he would still be coming into the Irish office.

http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&...1PWZEETEdW0w4w
The issue of a PAYE exclusion order is an administrative decision for the Revenue. The more important issue is the assessability of the remuneration. Apart from the days spent at the office in Ireland, it seems that the duties of the employment are exercised in the UK and have been for 8 years. It seems that Ireland could not assert taxing rights on the remuneration due to art 15 of the DTA between Ireland and the UK. More importantly, based on what he has stsated here, the OP is certainly resident in the UK and should have been filing UK tax returns once arrival. If he has some liability to Irish tax, that would be available for credit against his UK income tax liability. Likewise the position with respect yo PRSI/NIC needs to be regularised.
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09-08-2012, 23:18   #18
Shane732
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Ahhh these threads are really starting to pi** me off!!

This is a complicated area of taxation and every time we leave a thread open it descends into someone saying no Irish tax and another person saying Irish tax on everything.

People don't appreciate that PAYE and Income Tax are two different things and then you add PRSI into the equation and it just blows peoples heads.

In principal your starting point is Irish contract = Irish PAYE & PRSI.

I principally look after the majority of the expat/assignment/secondments (or whatever you want to call them) queries in the firm. I deal with plenty of these queries with all sorts of weird and wonderful intricacies. Your hope when you get one of these is that the company haven't gone and tried to implement something themselves, otherwise the chances are its totally screwed up! They are great for generating income though - we had 7 offices working on one query...... The correspondence was gas!

Quoting sections of the DTA isn't the way to go to with these queries.

OP a couple of comments:
  • Your employer is an Irish resident entity,
  • You are employed under an Irish contract of employment,
  • You spend less than 140 days per annum (280 days over two years) in the State,
  • 100% of the duties of your employment are carried out in Ireland,
  • You are currently paying Irish PAYE and Irish PRSI,
  • You are not paying any UK tax on your employment income,

You might confirm if the above statements are correct. I haven't read through the whole thread so the statements above may have been covered off already and may be completely wrong.
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10-08-2012, 14:07   #19
Marcusm
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Originally Posted by Shane732 View Post

  • 100% of the duties of your employment are carried out in Ireland,.
Sorry if you're being p*ssed off. The OP seems not to be replying but I think the bullet point above is the only one which is not correct based on the OP's statements. He has advised that he works from a home office int he UK to which his Irish office number is diverted. Additionally, he attends at an Irish office for 5 days per month. Clearly this is abopve any de minimis level but it is hard to accept the assertions made by another that the fact that he is working from a UK home is irrelevant in determining from where the employment is exercised. Followed to the logical conclusion, reductio ad absurdum, if he never attended the Irish office, could the same argument have any validity. For what it's worth, I'm unconvinced that his physical location can be disregarded in determining the extent to which the employment is exercised in the State. This is not the situation of an NI based employee crossing the border each day.



Frankly, I feel a little sorry for the OP as some small planning by his employer at the beginning could have made things much simpler for him. He may be required to be subject to PAYE but it is hard to accept that he has a liability for Irish income tax on 100% of his employment income as it is not "exercised" in the State. I do not think that his employer would have to have a PE in the UK for the employee to be exercising his employment outside Ireland, for example.


As much as the OP needs Irish tax advice, he also needs UK tax advice. Whether that is at his expense or that of his employer will be known only to them.
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10-08-2012, 20:02   #20
Shane732
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcusm View Post
[/LIST]Sorry if you're being p*ssed off. The OP seems not to be replying but I think the bullet point above is the only one which is not correct based on the OP's statements. He has advised that he works from a home office int he UK to which his Irish office number is diverted. Additionally, he attends at an Irish office for 5 days per month. Clearly this is abopve any de minimis level but it is hard to accept the assertions made by another that the fact that he is working from a UK home is irrelevant in determining from where the employment is exercised. Followed to the logical conclusion, reductio ad absurdum, if he never attended the Irish office, could the same argument have any validity. For what it's worth, I'm unconvinced that his physical location can be disregarded in determining the extent to which the employment is exercised in the State. This is not the situation of an NI based employee crossing the border each day.



Frankly, I feel a little sorry for the OP as some small planning by his employer at the beginning could have made things much simpler for him. He may be required to be subject to PAYE but it is hard to accept that he has a liability for Irish income tax on 100% of his employment income as it is not "exercised" in the State. I do not think that his employer would have to have a PE in the UK for the employee to be exercising his employment outside Ireland, for example.


As much as the OP needs Irish tax advice, he also needs UK tax advice. Whether that is at his expense or that of his employer will be known only to them.
Ok, based on your comments I suspect the appropriate treatment at present should be:
  • Irish PAYE on 100% of employment income,
  • UK PAYE on 100% of employment income,
  • NIC on 100% of employment income,
  • PRSI on 100% of employment income

There's any number of issues with the above, however based on a strict reading of the legislation in both countries that's what be happening.

The best outcome in this would be:
  • UK PAYE on portion of duties carried out in the UK,
  • NIC through payroll on duties of employment carried out in the UK,
  • Irish PAYE on portion of duties carried out in Ireland,
  • Potentially NIC through UK Income Tax return on duties of employment carried out in the Ireland.
  • No Irish PRSI

The individual would have to file a UK income tax return, return details of Irish employment income and claim a tax credit for Irish PAYE deducted.

It's an absolute mess to clear up though, not to mention costly!
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