[dubhthach]

Well I put it down to a "one size fits all" approach or the new word-du-jour "universalism" (used with regards to child benefit).

If you look at school system in likes of Netherlands they actually stream students into three seperate streams in second level.



Even then each has multiple "Tracks", here's quoting from wiki

The vmbo (voorbereidend middelbaar beroepsonderwijs, literally, "preparatory middle-level vocational education") education is a school track in the Netherlands. It lasts four years, from the age of twelve to sixteen. It combines vocational training with theoretical education in languages, mathematics, history, arts and sciences. Sixty percent of students nationally are enrolled in vmbo. The vmbo has four different levels, in each a different mix of practical vocational training and theoretical education is combined.

• Theoretical learning path (Dutch: Theoretische leerweg) is the most theoretical of the four, it prepares for middle management and vocational training in the mbo-level of tertiary education and it is needed to enter havo. It was previously known as "mavo".
• Mixed learning path (Dutch: Gemengde leerweg) is in between the Theoretical and Middle Management-oriented paths.
• Middle management-oriented learning path (Dutch: Kaderberoepsgerichte Leerweg) teaches theoretical education and vocational training equally. It prepares for middle management and vocational training in the mbo-level of tertiary education.
• Basic profession-oriented learning path (Dutch: Basisberoepsgerichte Leerweg) emphasizes vocational training and prepares for the vocational training in the mbo-level of tertiary education.
• Practical education (Dutch: Praktijkonderwijs) consists out of mainly vocational training. It is meant for pupils who would otherwise not obtain their vmbo-diplomas. After obtaining this diploma pupils can enter the job market without further training.

For all of these levels there is "learning path supporting education" (Dutch: Leerweg Ondersteunend Onderwijs), which is intended for pupils with educational or behavioural problems. These pupils are taught in small classes by specialized teachers.

The havo or hoger algemeen voortgezet onderwijs (literally: "higher general continued education") is a stream in the secondary educational system of the Netherlands. It has five grades and is generally attended from age twelve to seventeen. A havo diploma provides access to the hbo-level (polytechnic) of tertiary education.
The first three years together are called the Basisvorming (literally, "basis formation"). All pupils follow the same subjects: languages, mathematics, history, arts and sciences. In the third year pupils must choose one of four profiles. A profile is a set of different subjects that will make up for the largest part of the pupil's timetable in the fourth and fifth year, that are together called the Tweede Fase (literally, "second phase"). A profile specializes the pupil in an area, and some hbo and wo studies therefore require a specific profile. Students must also choose one to three additional subjects. Furthermore, Dutch and English, as well as some minor subjects, are compulsory. In all profiles mathematics is compulsory, but the level of difficulty differs for each profile. Pupils still have some free space for electives, which is not taken up by compulsory and profile subjects; they can pick two subjects from other profiles. Sometimes pupils choose more than two subjects, which can result in multiple profiles. In 2006 one pupil graduated cum laude in all profiles.

• Cultuur en Maatschappij (literally, "culture and society") emphasizes on history, arts and foreign languages (French, German and less frequently Spanish, Russian, Arabic, Turkish and West Frisian). The mathematics classes focus on statistics and stochastics. This profile prepares for artistic and cultural training at the hbo.
• Economie en Maatschappij (literally, "economy and society") emphasizes on social sciences, economy, and history. The mathematics classes focus on statistics and stochastics. This profile prepares for social science and economy training at the hbo.
• Natuur en Gezondheid (literally, "nature and health") emphasizes on biology and natural sciences. The mathematics classes focus on algebra and geometry. Since 2007 pupils who choose the Nature and Health profile are free to choose Mathematics-A (Wiskunde A), which focus on statistics. This profile is necessary to attend medical training at the hbo.
• Natuur en Techniek (literally, "nature and technology") emphasizes on natural sciences. The mathematics classes focus on algebra and geometry. This profile is necessary to attend technological and natural science training at the hbo.

The Havo voor Muziek en Dans is unique in providing a secondary school education in which music and dance are part of the daily curriculum. It is collocated with Codarts, the Conservatory of Music and Dance Academy, and shares the same teachers.[1]

Article on VWO here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voorber...lijk_onderwijs

Some relevant highlights:

In the Phase II, all students are required to participate in the following courses: Dutch, English, mathematics (there are four different courses in mathematics: A/B/C/D), Latin or Ancient Greek/an additional foreign language (Gymnasium students are not required to follow an additional foreign language other than English), PE (in Dutch: 'bewegingsonderwijs of lichamelijk onderwijs'), ANW (General Nature Sciences, only in the fourth/fifth class, depending on the school), CKV (a general form of culture and art education in the Atheneum stream) or KCV (classical cultural education in the Gymnasium stream, similar to CKV, except from the fact that this course focussus on the classical aspect) and "Maatschappijleer" (only in the fifth/sixth class, something like social sciences). The content of some subjects has also changed: economics has become a total subject, instead of variations between economics 1 or 2, similar to the fact that students do not longer have to choose between French 1 or 2 and German 1 or 2 but will instead follow French and German as whole subjects.
The four profiles are:

• Cultuur en Maatschappij (literally, "culture and society") emphasizes history, arts, and foreign languages (French, German and less frequently Spanish, Russian, Arabic, Hebrew and Turkish). Students following this profile are required to choose between mathematics A and C. Mathematics C is a simplified version of mathematics A, focusing on stochastics and in a lesser extent on statistics. This profile prepares for artistic and cultural training at the university.
• Economie en Maatschappij (literally, "economics and society") emphasizes history and economics. Students following this profile are required to choose between mathematics A and B, as mathematics C do not give access to economics classes. Mathematics B focuses on algebra and geometry, and sometimes mathematics A and B share content of the taught material, albeit mathematics A a slightly simplified version of mathematics B in these cases.

This profile prepares for economics training at university.
Students following the first two profiles are required to follow history and in the second profile economics is also required. There are more optional additional courses in the first two profiles than in the last two profiles. The number of optional additional courses vary per school. Additional languages are considered to be part of the first profile, while geography and philosophy can be applied to both profiles.

• Natuur en Gezondheid (literally, "nature and health") emphasizes biology and natural sciences. You can choose between mathematics A and B, but B is recommended, as Physics and Chemistry require knowledge of this. This profile is necessary to attend medical training at university.
• Natuur en Techniek (literally, "nature and technology") emphasizes natural sciences. The mathematics classes focus on algebra and geometry. This profile is necessary to attend technological and natural science training at university and to attend medical school.

[Interest in History]

Originally Posted by dubhthach

Well I put it down to a "one size fits all" approach or the new word-du-jour "universalism" (used with regards to child benefit).

If you look at school system in likes of Netherlands they actually stream students into three seperate streams in second level.



Even then each has multiple "Tracks", here's quoting from wiki





Article on VWO here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voorber...lijk_onderwijs

Some relevant highlights:

Interesting reading. It is a a sad thing to compare and contrast the Dutch system with ours.

But I'd like to leave out of that consideration the matter of the teaching and learning of Irish in our system. The position of Irish is decided by political ideology and not by educational criteria, so results in that area are decided by factors which are different from those for, let's say, the learning of English in the Nederlands. In short, the ideological purpose behind compulsory Irish is satisfied regardless of the amount of Irish actually learned by the pupils. Its language outcome is irrelevant to its political purpose. Everybody knows that we are not going to speak Irish.

I don't know how long it would take for our Department of Education to advance towards those good aspects of the Dutch system. There is no evidence that they even want to. The teachers and the officials will easily frustrate any good intentions that Ruairi Quinn had at the start of his 'reign'.

[paddyandy]

The Irish language simply does'nt work with imported subcultures and no doubt some people will turn that simple truth into a book .Guitars and Gaelge do not go together .Hollywood could never make a film in Irish it would not be funny at all .
Gaelge is not sensuous just as many other languages are not and are suffering as well.Gaelge is a stunted rustic language kept alive in the Standardised Classroom Mode and is only just surviving .It never evolved properly it seems though i'm getting into the margins here .

[Interest in History]

Originally Posted by paddyandy

The Irish language simply does'nt work with imported subcultures and no doubt some people will turn that simple truth into a book .Guitars and Gaelge do not go together .Hollywood could never make a film in Irish it would not be funny at all .
Gaelge is not sensuous just as many other languages are not and are suffering as well.Gaelge is a stunted rustic language kept alive in the Standardised Classroom Mode and is only just surviving .It never evolved properly it seems though i'm getting into the margins here .

Irish as a language could reflect any culture, I'm sure. If it were used for a hundred years in the service of a community of advanced education living in an advanced multi-faceted modern society. But as you say, it in fact only exists in a Standardised Classroom Mode. As such it can continue indefinately, as long as it serves its symbolic purpose with our political "leaders" and as long as it provides economic benefits for a certain elite.

[Buttonftw]

For those hours required to learn a language I find it interesting how many trilingual Europeans I've come across who only started learning their non-native language around 12 or 13.

[Interest in History]

Originally Posted by Buttonftw

For those hours required to learn a language I find it interesting how many trilingual Europeans I've come across who only started learning their non-native language around 12 or 13.

The fundamental and essential requirement for learning anything is that the learner wants to learn it. Irish students, in the main, don't want to learn Irish. So, in the main, it is not learned.

The only strange thing about this well known fact is that the politicians shy away from admitting it. 'Ming' Flanagan, on the last day of debate on the Gaeltacht Bill put it up to the T'D's but you could nearly hear their knees knocking at hearing a bit of the truth being told.

[dubhthach]

Originally Posted by paddyandy

The Irish language simply does'nt work with imported subcultures and no doubt some people will turn that simple truth into a book .Guitars and Gaelge do not go together .Hollywood could never make a film in Irish it would not be funny at all .
Gaelge is not sensuous just as many other languages are not and are suffering as well.Gaelge is a stunted rustic language kept alive in the Standardised Classroom Mode and is only just surviving .It never evolved properly it seems though i'm getting into the margins here .

I'm sorry what's so "rustic"/"un-evolved" about it? Like any language any topic can be discussed, are you claiming that people never spoke about music/popular culture through the medium of language when it was still majority language of the island (prior to 1800)? Let alone when it was the language of the elite of the population (prior to 1700)?

There are translations of works such as the Aenid into Irish from as early as the 11th century. It was very much a literary language, there's for example more manuscript texts in Irish about Medicine from medieval period then all other European vernacular languages put together (Latin was used instead). Along with one of largest collections of satire and poetry from any European language during the period.

There is at least one Irish translation of De Scientia Motus Orbis that dates to the 14th century. This text which dates to 9th century Persia had originally been translated from Arabic to Latin. The latin version was translated to Irish. Here's how you explain Lunar eclipses in a Geocentric model of the Solar system:




Another astronomical text from the mid 16th century is "Ranna an aeir" (The Constellations). In it the author talks about the individual constellations and gives brief paragraph about mythological story behind their name from Greco-Roman world.

So for example: "Minerva's battle-shield" = "cath-sgiath Meinerbha" (Sciath is modern spelling of medieval sgiath) -- taken from story of Perseus and the gorgon Medusa.

In general I agree with Interest in History, most Irish people just couldn't be arsed, it's the usual "awh sure, It'll be grand". The same of course applies to the poor standards of Continental languages in Irish people. Compare to most Europeans we have very poor rates of language uptake. Why is this? Because in general we couldn't be arsed, "sure everyone speaks english, why do I need to learn German/French/Spanish etc."

In my own opinion the state has been the languages worst enemy, put it on a pedestal for cermonial purposes, but completely ignore the viability of actual language community (massive de-population/emigration from Irish speaking areas from independence till now, unemployment of 25-40% in parts of Gaeltacht etc). What's interesting as well is there are elments in the civil service who are actually against the expansion of Irish medium education. No doubt because it's driven by parental demand/community actions, as opposed to be been announced from above.

After all they basically stop recognizing new Gaelscoileanna in period 2006-2011. That and the proposal for Gaelchólaiste in North Kildare was turned down:

Coiste Bunaithe approached An Foras Patrúnachta to apply for patronage of “new” Maynooth Post-Primary School and designate it as a Gaelcholáiste.
There has been very strong Department of Education opposition for this application, the expression of interest made by An Foras Patrúnachta in applying for patronage of the new Maynooth school has not been registered on the DES website.
Application for patronage made on February 24th, 2012.
Letter received by the Department of Education in March 2012 stating that the application will not be considered because Maynooth is not a designated area for a Gaelcholáiste.

Even though there are already four Gaelscoileanna in North Kildare (total of 1,200 students) which would act as feeders -- 88% of parents said they would like children to continue their education in a Gaelchólaiste.

[Interest in History]

Originally Posted by dubhthach

...............

In general I agree with Interest in History, most Irish people just couldn't be arsed, it's the usual "awh sure, It'll be grand". The same of course applies to the poor standards of Continental languages in Irish people. Compare to most Europeans we have very poor rates of language uptake. Why is this? Because in general we couldn't be arsed, "sure everyone speaks english, why do I need to learn German/French/Spanish etc."

In my own opinion the state has been the languages worst enemy, put it on a pedestal for cermonial purposes, but completely ignore the viability of actual language community (massive de-population/emigration from Irish speaking areas from independence till now, unemployment of 25-40% in parts of Gaeltacht etc). What's interesting as well is there are elments in the civil service who are actually against the expansion of Irish medium education. No doubt because it's driven by parental demand/community actions, as opposed to be been announced from above.

After all they basically stop recognizing new Gaelscoileanna in period 2006-2011. That and the proposal for Gaelchólaiste in North Kildare was turned down:

Even though there are already four Gaelscoileanna in North Kildare (total of 1,200 students) which would act as feeders -- 88% of parents said they would like children to continue their education in a Gaelchólaiste.

Yes - the State (i.e.the stae officials') relationship with Irish is distorted to the point of being weird. Why on earth a government should think that it has a duty to change its population's language is itself weird. All they have to do to get it right is to provide Irish-language facilities to those who want them and leave it at that without further favoritism or duress. E.g.: no extra 10% marks for the Leaving Cert in Irish and nobody forced to do Irish in the Leaving Cert if they don't want to.

But let's remember - the lack of clear thinking and of moral courage by our Oireachtas members is a pervasive characteristic. Topsy-turvy policies don't only apply to Irish. Why should we be surprised that they made a bags of Irish when we can see how they've made a bags of our independence overall.

[Interest in History]

Originally Posted by deise go deo

I would disagree, in the education sector, knowing Irish is a real economic benefit, not just because you can get a job as an Irish teacher, but because the Gaelscoil movement is growing so fast, there is a real demand for highly competent Irish speakers to take primary teaching posts, and the growth of the Gaelcholaistí(second level) means that competence in Irish is an economic advantage for someone studying to be a teacher no matter what their chosen subject is, Personally I am currently studying to be a secondry school metalwork teacher, and have applied to do my teaching practice in the Gaeltacht, these options are open to everyone now because there are jobs, and a growing number of jobs at that, available that require that skill set. When it comes to finding a job when I leave Uni, I will have more options than my non-Irish seaking classmates.

The media is another area where fluency in Irish is a real advantage, it is much easier to make your way up the ranks through Irish language media and then break out into English media than it is to work your way up through English media because there is much less competition for the places available in the Irish language sector. Just look at how many of RTÉ's current presenters started out through Irish.

As for translating state services into Irish, if you don't do that then we are back to the same old situation where the state requires you to learn Irish when your in school, but won't let you use it when you leave.

Agreed, as to your examples. But I think I am still correct in saying that these are all state-created opportunites as part of the support for Irish usage which would not otherwise exist.

Obviously all of the people availing of these employment opportunities to-day have English as their mother tongue. Obviously all those watching RTE TV and TG4 are native English speakers except, I suppose, for a few older people. And obviously your future metal-work pupils will all be native English-speakers. So the programme of state employment created around the use of Irish serves a political objective and not a linguistic one. As such, it answers to its own (political) logic.

[paddyandy]

Every simple fact becomes an essay and then a long winded argument morphing into a book because books are business .In the end the people will decide how the Language continues and children who can't or won't speak it after fourteen years learning it does'nt offer much hope but it will survive like an Aul maw that dozes by the fire and comes to life now and again an mutters awhile and returns to sleep .Handy exhibit when the local td visits .

[Interest in History]

Originally Posted by paddyandy

Every simple fact becomes an essay and then a long winded argument morphing into a book because books are business .In the end the people will decide how the Language continues and children who can't or won't speak it after fourteen years learning it does'nt offer much hope but it will survive like an Aul maw that dozes by the fire and comes to life now and again an mutters awhile and returns to sleep .Handy exhibit when the local td visits .

Good image. Good laugh...

(Q: Will she be getting a grant as she dozes?)

[deise go deo]

Originally Posted by Interest in History

Obviously all of the people availing of these employment opportunities to-day have English as their mother tongue. Obviously all those watching RTE TV and TG4 are native English speakers except, I suppose, for a few older people. And obviously your future metal-work pupils will all be native English-speakers. So the programme of state employment created around the use of Irish serves a political objective and not a linguistic one. As such, it answers to its own (political) logic.

That's neither obvious nor true, there are still (Tens of) thousands of people for whom Irish is their mother tongue, many people, especially in Gaeltacht areas, who avail of these jobs are native Irish speakers, that they can also speak English is neither here nor there.

You seem intent on painting a picture where Government interference is all one way, that Irish is given preferential treatment. The reality however is that there are areas where the majority of the population is native Irish speaking, and that the Government and Civil Service is still unable and unwilling to provide even basic services in those communities in Irish.

The state has made it abundantly clear that, whatever about Irish being compulsory in the classroom, English is compulsory everywhere else, whether the area is majority Irish speaking or not, whether you are a native Irish speaker or not.

[robp]

Originally Posted by paddyandy

The Irish language simply does'nt work with imported subcultures and no doubt some people will turn that simple truth into a book .Guitars and Gaelge do not go together .Hollywood could never make a film in Irish it would not be funny at all .
Gaelge is not sensuous just as many other languages are not and are suffering as well.Gaelge is a stunted rustic language kept alive in the Standardised Classroom Mode and is only just surviving .It never evolved properly it seems though i'm getting into the margins here .

In the 19th centuary academics actually believed this kind of nonsense. People thought language influences behaviour E.g. Germans are orderly because their language is so regular. There are many claimed examples of this idea but its false. For instance German is actually a very complicated and unordered language.

The point is, people create language and not the other way round. Even the most primitive language can be used to explain complex ideas or humour. Language is extraordinarily flexible, otherwise it would be quickly forgotten. there is no such thing as a 'rustic' language, only a perception of what rustic life sounds like. That exists in your mind but not mine.

The only big difference within languages occurs between languages without written word and those that have written word. When writing is introduced the number of words can drastically increase. Funnily enough Irish has been written down for longer than English!

[Interest in History]

Originally Posted by deise go deo

That's neither obvious nor true, there are still (Tens of) thousands of people for whom Irish is their mother tongue, many people, especially in Gaeltacht areas, who avail of these jobs are native Irish speakers, that they can also speak English is neither here nor there. .

I wonder if, over time, the recent Gaeltacht Act will take this question out of the area of generalisations? It provides for the numbers of irish speakers in each of the Gaeltacht sub-sections to be counted.

But of course, for basic reasons of their number as a fraction of the population, the number of Gaeltacht residents who benefit from the state-provided jobs will always be quite small compared to the number coming from the nation-wide gaelscoileanna. And as we know, having Irish as your mother tongue is not a requirement for those jobs anyway.

I think that over the nine decades of independence the state agencies have done thier best to protect Irish. I really don't know what else the state could have done.

[Interest in History]

Originally Posted by robp

The only big difference within languages occurs between languages without written word and those that have written word. When writing is introduced the number of words can drastically increase. Funnily enough Irish has been written down for longer than English!

Obviously the English, German, Spanish or mandarin languages don't trump all others because of their grammatical structures. Would anybody claim that?

But for suitability for coping with the modern (actual) world there is another factor - span and depth of the usage of a particular language in that actual world. When a language is in use accross large communities with the full range of social expression and in all contexts from nuclear physics to drama to sport and politics it has obvious advantages as a medium of communication for the modern person.

Irish is not such a language.