[Armelodie]

just wondering is the review for allowances for people who started a masters course pre 2012 still lying dusty on a desk somewhere.

I think the phrase they'll probably be using soon for NEVER making a decision is 'placed into abeyance'

From ASTI website

I am currently studying for a Masters. Will I receive an allowance?

However, the ASTI has written to the Department in relation to teachers who were in the middle of pursuing qualifications on December 5th 2011. The Department has stated that a decision will be made in relation to these teachers as part of the public service wide review. The ASTI believes these teachers have a legitimate expectation to receive the allowance which was available at the time they undertook further study.

[Geologyrocks]

I read the other day in the indo that the review prob won't be completed until after the Dail summer recess. Howlin gave the excuse that they have over 800 public sector allowances to review. But sure it has been going on since Feb!
I wouldn't be surprised if they leave it until the budget to announce it at this stage.

[Armelodie]

Suppose it makes sense for them to do nothing really (from their point of view of course)

[RealJohn]

Didn't realise that was being reviewed. That's a bit of potentially good news for me, not that it makes an awful lot of difference to me anyway since I'm already receiving the allowance for the honours degree.

Although while I'm here, can anyone confirm for me that you only ever received the allowance for an honours degree or a masters, not both. I always assumed it was one or the other (which was the impression I got from the department and union websites) but a girl I worked with a few years ago was convinced you got both.

[Seanchai]

Originally Posted by RealJohn

Although while I'm here, can anyone confirm for me that you only ever received the allowance for an honours degree or a masters, not both. I always assumed it was one or the other (which was the impression I got from the department and union websites) but a girl I worked with a few years ago was convinced you got both.

True.


From 01/01/2010
1.(a)
(i)H. Dip in Ed. (Pass)
€591
(ii)Higher Froebel Certificate
€591
(b)
(i)H.Dip in Ed. (1st or 2nd Hons)
€1,236
(ii)Ard Teastas Gaeilge
€1,236
(c)
Primary Degree (Pass)
€1,842
(d)
Masters Degree by thesis or exam (Pass)
€4,918
(e)
Primary Degree (1st, 2nd or 3rd Hons)
€4,918
(f)
Master Degree (1st or 2nd Hons)
€5,496
(g)
Doctors Degree
€6,140
Either of the allowances (a) or (b) may be held together with any one of the allowances (c) to (g).

[Armelodie]

Huzzah....

Just to tie up a previous question...

Allowances granted if you started your course before the cuts came in.

[Zizigirl]

Originally Posted by Armelodie

Huzzah....

Just to tie up a previous question...

Allowances granted if you started your course before the cuts came in.

Is it only masters and up? What about existing (on 5th December 2011) VEC teachers who were in the middle of the part time H.Dip/Graduate Dip in Ed?

[Armelodie]

Originally Posted by Zizigirl

Is it only masters and up? What about existing (on 5th December 2011) VEC teachers who were in the middle of the part time H.Dip/Graduate Dip in Ed?

says ,," only applies to qualifications additional to those required for teaching" ..check the asti link in my post above ... It would seem as if the HDip dont count....sorry!

[TheBody]

Originally Posted by Zizigirl

Is it only masters and up? What about existing (on 5th December 2011) VEC teachers who were in the middle of the part time H.Dip/Graduate Dip in Ed?

I'm in the same boat. Doesn't look good.

[Miss Lockhart]

Originally Posted by Armelodie

says ,," only applies to qualifications additional to those required for teaching" ..check the asti link in my post above ... It would seem as if the HDip dont count....sorry!

That's very vague and seems open to interpretation. The dip is not (yet) required for teaching in the VEC and VEC employees who began the course before the change had as much reasonable expectation of the allowance as those undertaking a masters at the time.

No doubt they will go with whatever interpretation saves the most money though.

[Powerhouse]

Originally Posted by Miss Lockhart

That's very vague and seems open to interpretation. The dip is not (yet) required for teaching in the VEC and VEC employees who began the course before the change had as much reasonable expectation of the allowance as those undertaking a masters at the time.

No doubt they will go with whatever interpretation saves the most money though.

I certainly do not think it is very vague. At best there might be a tenuous argument that a select few might have a case for exemption, but it is hardly vague in its broad message.

It states that it is reinstating allowances only for qualifications additional to those required for teaching which by definition does not include the Professional Diploma in Education as that is required for teaching. Conversely, a Masters in not required - not ever under any circumstances is it a requirement for teaching.

The statement says nothing about the PDE being a requirement in all sectors, and I suspect this has been stated to allow for the knowledge that there are teachers without the PDE and to emphasise that they will not be retrospectively given an allowance. In that sense it is arguable that its inclusion actually clarifies the situation for this group of people.

There is of course no little irony in the fact that someone might get an allowance for a Masters unconnected to their work, yet someone pursuing a PDE will not get an allowance! On the other hand, is it fair to the current PDE class if one person can qualify for an allowance when they might have gone teaching without a qualification originally because they could not make the cut for the PDE in the first instance and went teaching only to pick up experience points for the PDE as is often the case?

[Armelodie]

Originally Posted by Powerhouse

I certainly do not think it is very vague. At best there might be a tenuous argument that a select few might have a case for exemption, but it is hardly vague in its broad message.

It states that it is reinstating allowances only for qualifications additional to those required for teaching which by definition does not include the Professional Diploma in Education as that is required for teaching. Conversely, a Masters in not required - not ever under any circumstances is it a requirement for teaching.

The statement says nothing about the PDE being a requirement in all sectors, and I suspect this has been stated to allow for the knowledge that there are teachers without the PDE and to emphasise that they will not be retrospectively given an allowance. In that sense it is arguable that its inclusion actually clarifies the situation for this group of people.

There is of course no little irony in the fact that someone might get an allowance for a Masters unconnected to their work, yet someone pursuing a PDE will not get an allowance! On the other hand, is it fair to the current PDE class if one person can qualify for an allowance when they might have gone teaching without a qualification originally because they could not make the cut for the PDE in the first instance and went teaching only to pick up experience points for the PDE as is often the case?

I'd tend to agree that the pde isn't an additional qualification to teaching. If someone undertook a pde for the sole purpose of getting an extra allowance then maybe their motifs need to be questioned...

I got the PDE first with the intention to teach , although I would have no doubt taken a job with the VEC with just my degree if I could have...

The sole reason I did the masters was to inform my teaching and maybe help towards security of tenure or, god forbid, promotion opportunities. I'd be a fool to do it for the monetary benefits...

Total cost ( fees\transport\parking etc) was about €11, 500.
+ family stress whilst studying

Masters Allowance worth €500 extra a year (but because im not on full hours or never will be, this works out about €350 per year)
Tax relief is about 800 odd I think..

So going by a very very rough estimation it would take about thirty years to pay off the Masters...(I would have been better off doing another degree/subject BTW)...

Don't get me wrong though , the allowance does incentivise a little and may be the tipping point for alot of people to go for it...I am angry that the government doesn't realise how qualified Irish teachers are in comparison to other countries.. I think that recent report they got done by some Finnish guy acknowledged this.

. For the future, there will be definitely a smaller pool of people entering the profession who might just stick with the bare essentials to get a few part time hours and maybe a CID at best... Death by a thousand cuts to the teaching profession..

So that's my rant, upshot... The allowance for the bare Pgde was a legacy issue dating back yonks so shouldn't be an incentive to enter into the profession...extraneous qualifications/allowances should come under a different system to the PDE..

[seavill]

What do you mean you never will be on full hours

[Armelodie]

Originally Posted by seavill

What do you mean you never will be on full hours

I mean looking at the lay of the land in my school in particular ( sorry but id rather not get into too many specifics) and the way cutbacks are going. Pupil teacher ratio.. School over quota.. And possibly with reductions in subjects for junior cert... Looks likely my cid might just about be tenable for about another decade ...

Either way if I was on full 22 hrs itd take about 20 years to ' break even' with a masters allowance. my point was that no one I knew undertook the masters for the extra allowance, but in saying that, the allowance might have been the ' tipping point' in chosing to do it...

Perhaps if they replaced the allowance with a more generous tax relief !

[Miss Lockhart]

I agree with a lot of what is being said, but at the same time it is a fact that the PDE is not required for teaching in the VEC, so in those cases it a qualification additional to those required for teaching there. I also doubt it is a few select cases - certainly when I did my dip at least 1/5 of those on the course already held contracts with the VEC, and in my school alone this ruling would affect 6 people.

The motives for doing a PDE or masters are not really the issue here. I simply think that those already employed by the VEC who began the PDE before the change to allowance have as much entitlement to receive their allowance as those who began a masters at that time - based on the wording of this statement.