[dermo88]

Thanks again Losty

We also have to remember that Europe was nowhere near as economically integrated as it is today.

If we go and plump for Maybach, MAN, MTU you still need Deutschmarks.
If we go for Brissonleau and Lotz you need French Francs
If we go for NOHAB we need Swedish Kronor
If we go for Sulzer we need Swiss Francs
If we go for GM we need Dollars

ALL of these were scarce or practically non-existent in the Irish Central Bank coffers which was still part of the Sterling zone and dictating Irish economic policy through London. Ireland was a Sterling user until 1979. Not only the Irish Central Bank, Irish state finance was handled by Bank of Ireland until the late 1960's.

So a half decent quality English Electric is off the cards (fortunately). The Sulzer 101's were a damn good quality engine.

"Irish meat and dairy produce oddly being sold to the UK at the same meeting :roll eyes:"

Its the best thing we had to offer at the time, apart from navvies to slog away on the M62, M5, M1, etc, and make a generation of Irishmen who pretended to be Irish on St Patricks Day, but were born in England. Heck, the job of many of those locomotives was to bring emigrants to the Boat trains on a one way trip, and then haul 15 coach rakes of them on holidays at Christmas, Summer, Easter from Carlisle Pier, Rosslare, North Wall, Cobh, Waterford......

[Captain Chaos]

Originally Posted by Losty Dublin

Stopped 201's are stored in Inchicore and are started on a semi regular basis to charge batteries and to help prevent engines from seizing. Mark 3's are tendered for scrapping after no approaches were made to sell them on as working stock.

I reckon some of the stopped 201s have been stripped for parts to keep the others running.

204 spent a long time in the middle of the 141 scrap line next to the mainline at Inchicore during 2010. It was blocked right in the middle of about 5 or 6 of the withdrawn 141s, I was convinced that 204 was up for scrap and stripped of all useful spare parts at that stage.

[Karsini]

Originally Posted by Captain Chaos

I reckon some of the stopped 201s have been stripped for parts to keep the others running.

216 certainly has been stripped.

[steamengine]

Originally Posted by Losty Dublin

Back you up on something here, Dermo.

GM were liasing with CIE for over a decade about supplying loco's and CIE were very keen to purchase from them, even before Bulleid was around and he had a stiffy for their product. Only one thing stopped them from purchasing; a lack of $ to pay for the fleet as distinct to a lack of money. When the push to eliminate steam was made, the cash came from the cabinet coffers so effectively it was what they wanted to go for that decided what CIE got. GM's bid was superior to every other bid in what they offered and Inchicore knew they were the preferred bidder in every way bar being slightly dearer; CIE actually worked out that the GM bid would, in one year, save them more than the cost of the cheapest bid in operational economies. However, cabinet made the call and the gig went to Metro Vicks, Irish meat and dairy produce oddly being sold to the UK at the same meeting :roll eyes:

Anyway, the decision was made and CIE received the 96 loco's to complement their 2 homegrown Sulzers as well as the Birmingham built locos that became the 101 class. In fairness to the Metro Vick fleet, they were well built with good electrics and were largely favored by drivers but their primary fall down was in an engine that was proven to work but in boats and stationary generators, not motive vehicles. The fitters in Inchicore were only getting used to diesel by the time the first A Class engines were delivered (Some say quicker than the Metro Vick techies who built them!) but they adapted very well to the new beasts and kept them ticking over on the road for over 30 years.

It appears nevertheless that they stuck with the Crossleys for 10-14 years before re-engining. I think they were generally regarded as maintenance intensive, rather than being an outright failure, otherwise they couldn't have operated for that long. It must have come at some cost to keep them operational.

[Losty Dublin]

Originally Posted by steamengine

It appears nevertheless that they stuck with the Crossleys for 10-14 years before re-engining. I think they were generally regarded as maintenance intensive, rather than being an outright failure, otherwise they couldn't have operated for that long. It must have come at some cost to keep them operational.

It was more of a case of not being in a position to re-engine them and giving them time than wanting to stand by them. Even before the last specimens of A's were built, there was rectification of wholesale issues with the engines that required a lot of warranty shop time on them. Indeed, this low availability (50% at it's trough) led to Bulleid and his board getting their way with the Cabinet and making what was a panic order from GM (They offered a 10 month completion of the order) for what we now know as the 121 class and in 1961, the 37 members of the 141 class. CIE wanted to refit the A and C class fleet by then but the bigger problem was aquiring 96 powerheads, or more accurately, a willing supplier of same.

GM was the preferred choice after their orders were seen to be highly reliable but they, like most other companies, wanted to supply whole units if possible but certainly not powerheads for fear of association with the Metro Vick brand. Maybach supplied two engines for C's but they weren't much better than what they replaced while Mirlees and Sulzer, two other interested parties and companies that CIE hadn't been too happy with given past experiences. Eventually, GM agreed to the order of 60 engines for the A's and 30 for the C's (233 and 234 being Maybach powered by then) along with the supply of what were the 181 class to help sweeten them up.

Overall, the experience was a success with the GM order and it expanded the A and C's operational flexibity given their larger power to rail capability, faster speeds and general availability.

[dermo88]

Losty Dublin

Maybach supplied two engines for C's but they weren't much better than what they replaced while Mirlees and Sulzer, two other interested parties and companies that CIE hadn't been too happy with given past experiences.

The Maybachs were only a small two engine batch. Its possible down to the use of shunters (E401/E421) that they got ordered.

Mirlees, would'nt touch with a bargepole.
Sulzer, is the best choice of a European manufacturer instead of GM. But even then, in terms of reliability, it does not come close.

In fairness to the Metro Vick fleet, they were well built with good electrics and were largely favored by drivers but their primary fall down was in an engine that was proven to work but in boats and stationary generators, not motive vehicles.

The electrics and build was superb, apart from the engine, which while fine in a Marine environment was not suited to the rough and tumble of stopping and starting on a railway. Their longevity bears testament to that.

Though.....I'll never understand the thinking behind a 550hp BoBo. It seems distinctly underpowered for its remit.

[Losty Dublin]

Originally Posted by dermo88

The Maybachs were only a small two engine batch. Its possible down to the use of shunters (E401/E421) that they got ordered.

You are almost right; apparently they pretty much gave CIE two engines at a good price to try out after CIE weren't too willing to talk to them about it. They were a bit easier on fuel than a GM but they were an awkward 4 stroke cycle and they went down a fair bit.

Originally Posted by dermo88

Sulzer, is the best choice of a European manufacturer instead of GM. But even then, in terms of reliability, it does not come close.

The Sulzer units in the 101 class were not very reliable but they were a pre war design. Something else that the Sulzer had was a turbocharger and to a mid speed low weight system, this wasn't essential so a supercharged engine was going to be cheaper to fuel. As an bythought on this, the engine supplied for the A class was virtually identical to that in an 071 bar for the turbo; the A was capable enough in it's own right.

Originally Posted by dermo88

TThough.....I'll never understand the thinking behind a 550hp BoBo. It seems distinctly underpowered for its remit.

The C Class were earmarked for lighter branch work on the likes of Ardee, Foynes, Ballinrobe etc. The thought was that 550Hp was an increase of what most steam engines offered at rail so that's what was fitted.

[dermo88]

Losty Dublin

I learned more off you in a few days than 7 years of self opinionated bull excrement expressed by myself on IRN between 2001-2009. Your Dad was an engineer in Inchicore, and despite my horrifically right wing nonsense over the years, you are NOW giving me, and others a clue of the realiy. For that, thanks....

Frankly speaking, please accept my apologies for my past right wing stance. The ones I really wanted shot are CIE management. Not the workers.....

Christ........no wonder I got banned for 6 months....I knew too little, yet spoke too much. An internet A Class engine tackling Maedhbh

[Sligo Quay]

Originally Posted by dermo88

Losty Dublin

I learned more off you in a few days than 7 years of self opinionated bull excrement expressed by myself on IRN between 2001-2009.

Christ........no wonder I got banned for 6 months....I knew too little, yet spoke too much.

About time

[dermo88]

Sligo Quay

Please do not be under any illusions that I have seen some railroad to Damascus. There are all kinds of namby pamby theories on how Iarnrod Eireann could work better. My preference will be towards lousy basic pay but decent bonuses if management and workforce perform. Thats fine in theory, reality is another matter.

Now...meanwhile, back on topic, the 201's. Probably the best looking locomotives to grace Irish Rails, although the A Class with the Iarnrod Eireann white stripe likely win in my eyes.

[Cookie_Monster]

Originally Posted by dermo88

What survived, and was successful:

Class 20, Class 37, Class 50 - All 3 are English Electric, although the 50's did have problems with their electronics.

There've been a few more than that, those above are the most successful, particularly 37s but class 08 are everywhere, even now (78 listed on Wikipedia as still in mainline service, not to mention industry). Class 47 and 57 are still around and of the newer ones class 60s still achieve much of the super heavy work. 66 are everywhere but are of course not UK made.

In the 2nd level 24,25,26,27 and 31s all lasted successfully a fair while until multiple units and lack of light freight started to kill them off. Indeed 31s are still around for Network Rail.

Not to mention the Detics, one of which is back in service now

[Oscar Bravo]

The 201s are quicker on Freights than the 071s,then can get away quicker and come in harder if ya no what i mean!

[corktina]

Originally Posted by Cookie_Monster

There've been a few more than that, those above are the most successful, particularly 37s but class 08 are everywhere, even now (78 listed on Wikipedia as still in mainline service, not to mention industry). Class 47 and 57 are still around and of the newer ones class 60s still achieve much of the super heavy work. 66 are everywhere but are of course not UK made.

In the 2nd level 24,25,26,27 and 31s all lasted successfully a fair while until multiple units and lack of light freight started to kill them off. Indeed 31s are still around for Network Rail.

Not to mention the Detics, one of which is back in service now

over 1000 class 08s built with a good few hundred of their earlier bretherin , similar to D class in looks

[steamengine]

UP Enterprise through Howth Junction at 14:30 approx today.
207 pushing !!!

[Jamie2k9]

208 operating Cork services today.