[mikemac1]

Emailed RTÉ to see if they'll show Thou Shalt Not Kill again.
Doubt I'll get a reply but I'll follow up

Cathal O'Shannon died late last year so could be somewhat appropriate to run his show again for those who remember it and those who missed it first time around

[monb]

Originally Posted by mikemac1

Emailed RTÉ to see if they'll show Thou Shalt Not Kill again.
Doubt I'll get a reply but I'll follow up

Cathal O'Shannon died late last year so could be somewhat appropriate to run his show again for those who remember it and those who missed it first time around

It was a very good series alright and would get decent figures if they were to show it again I'd say.
I read the book that accompanied the series a fair few years ago and it was very interesting too.

[johnconnors]

MY uncle has the video of that program but he wouldn't let it oout of his sight for love or money. If a few people wanted to come to my place [Borrisoleigh] some evening, I could arrange for it to be shown,,

[GleesonErenach]

Originally Posted by HelenV

Hi Fragles,
My apologies. I'm new to this 'boards' crack and mistakenly replied to Furet.
Is there a possibility that we're related? Harry Gleeson had two sisters (one my grandmother) and as far as I know three brothers. I'd be interested to know a little more from your side but this is rather a public forum.
I don't live in Tipperary and am therefore not privy to a lot of personal information etc. but I'm really interested in gleaning any info you might have. Can you give me an idea as to your relationship to the Caesars / Gleesons.
The Caesars are from the Holycross area and a brother and sister of his lived there also but I'm not too sure where his actual parents came from. It would be interesting to find out.
I'd love to hear more from you.
HelenV

Hello
Dr Bourke's incredibly well researched and presented book Murder at Marlhill: Was Harry Gleeson Innocent says that Harry was óne of twelve children of Thomas Gleeson and Catherine Ceasar....he was born in 1903 near Holycross'. (page 3)

[The Woodcock]

I came across this thread after reading Murder at Marlhill last week, having first read it about 20 years ago. While Marcus Bourke made a good case for Gleeson's innocence, I felt there were a lot of avenues that he didn't explore.

The most intriguing aspect for me is the issue of when and where Moll Carthy was killed, particularly the matter of the Thursday morning shots. Bourke points out that several locals heard two shots at around 9.25 a.m. on Thursday. Moll Carthy's body was found by Gleeson about half an hour afterwards. Those who heard these shots only came forward with this information after Gleeson's conviction.

Elsewhere, however, Marcus Bourke speculates that Moll was killed in a nearby building with one shot and that the second shot was fired after her body had been carried to the place it was found. This was done to give the impression that she was killed where she was found. These two parts of Bourke's argument contradict one another i.e. were the two shots that killed here fired one after another or at separate times?

I also think Bourke could have given more attention to the situation of the Carthy children in the immediate aftermath of the murder. Who broke the news of their mother's death to the children? Who took care of them in the days and weeks following the murder? Did this open up possibilities for the children to be manipulated? Did the children ever speak of the case in subsequent years? I think it would have been fascinating to hear their perspective.

[The Woodcock]

I've just finished reading The Dead Eight by Carlo Gebler, the novel based on the Marlhill murder case mentioned earlier in the thread. Gebler traces Moll's story right back to the days of her mother, who was a woman of ill repute and who sold her body to get by in life during the time she spent in Dublin. Moll herself lived in a children's home in Thurles for her first sixteen years and never knew her father. Gebler paints her as a very promiscious woman, even by today's moral standards, not to mind the standards of the times she lived in. For instance, she jumps into bed with Sergeant Daly almost immediately upon his arrival at New Inn Garda station. She had numerous relationships with local men, married and unmarried, and used these relationship to improve her material circumstances. Having said that, Moll was quite discreet and revealed little about her various trysts once they were over.

According to Gebler, Moll was in a relationship with a local IRA leader, who he calls JJ Spink. He fathered her seventh and last child, who died at a young age. As with all her previously relationships, this one ended as a result of the pregnancy and the potential for scandal that surrounded it. Moll then began a relationship with Sergeant Daly, who was married, immediately upon his arrival in New Inn early in 1940. Daly's role in the Gardai was to root out the remnants of the IRA who were still active and this meant he had been stationed at several locations over the course of his career and was somewhat notorious for the rough treatment he dished out. His relationship with Moll presented a threat to Spink, who thought she might pass on information about his activties, and this provided the motive for her murder. Spink and two IRA associated brought Moll to a deserted house close to Marlhill on Wednesday evening, got her drunk, shot her and then planted her body where they knew Gleeson would find it on Thursday morning. Spink then blackmailed Sergeant Daly, threatening to reveal his relationship with Moll unless Daly was prepared to frame Harry Gleeson. Daly coached one of Moll's sons to say that Gleeson was the father of Moll's last child and the whole case against Gleeson rested on this. Gebler makes no mention of locals having heard gunshots, either on Wednesday evening or Thursday morning. There are other aspects of the case that are central to Marcus Bourke's book that don't appear in The Dead Eight.

One problem with the novel is that it is, as the author states in the afterword "a hybrid that combines some factual content with a great body of invented speculative material". The difficulty for the reader is identifying which aspects of the story are based on fact and which are speculative - frustrating if you want a clear factual account of the case but a good device from the author's perspective as Gebler cannot be accused of inventing facts or blackening the names of real people. It is interesting to note that Gebler got a lot encouragement from Marcus Bourke when decidig to write the novel. I am certain Marcus Bourke knew a lot about the case that wasn't included in his own book for legal or other reasons.

Two things jumped out at me in particular. One is a letter from Miss Cooney of Garranlea House to John Timoney, Gleeson's solictor, written over a year after the execution. Miss Cooney states that Moll's son admitted to her that he had been coached by Sergeant Daly to give testimony against Gleeson i.e. that Gleeson was the father of Moll's last child. I presume this is factual and based on an authentic letter.
There is also an account of a confession made by one of Moll's killers to her son and grandson in 1966. The man was terminally ill at te time. I'd love to know if this is a purely speculative account or based on something that Gebler would have heard from Moll's surviving relatives.

[GullibleOne]

Originally Posted by The Woodcock

I've just finished reading The Dead Eight by Carlo Gebler, the novel based on the Marlhill murder case mentioned earlier in the thread. Gebler traces Moll's story right back to the days of her mother, who was a woman of ill repute and who sold her body to get by in life during the time she spent in Dublin. Moll herself lived in a children's home in Thurles for her first sixteen years and never knew her father. Gebler paints her as a very promiscious woman, even by today's moral standards, not to mind the standards of the times she lived in. For instance, she jumps into bed with Sergeant Daly almost immediately upon his arrival at New Inn Garda station. She had numerous relationships with local men, married and unmarried, and used these relationship to improve her material circumstances. Having said that, Moll was quite discreet and revealed little about her various trysts once they were over.

According to Gebler, Moll was in a relationship with a local IRA leader, who he calls JJ Spink. He fathered her seventh and last child, who died at a young age. As with all her previously relationships, this one ended as a result of the pregnancy and the potential for scandal that surrounded it. Moll then began a relationship with Sergeant Daly, who was married, immediately upon his arrival in New Inn early in 1940. Daly's role in the Gardai was to root out the remnants of the IRA who were still active and this meant he had been stationed at several locations over the course of his career and was somewhat notorious for the rough treatment he dished out. His relationship with Moll presented a threat to Spink, who thought she might pass on information about his activties, and this provided the motive for her murder. Spink and two IRA associated brought Moll to a deserted house close to Marlhill on Wednesday evening, got her drunk, shot her and then planted her body where they knew Gleeson would find it on Thursday morning. Spink then blackmailed Sergeant Daly, threatening to reveal his relationship with Moll unless Daly was prepared to frame Harry Gleeson. Daly coached one of Moll's sons to say that Gleeson was the father of Moll's last child and the whole case against Gleeson rested on this. Gebler makes no mention of locals having heard gunshots, either on Wednesday evening or Thursday morning. There are other aspects of the case that are central to Marcus Bourke's book that don't appear in The Dead Eight.

One problem with the novel is that it is, as the author states in the afterword "a hybrid that combines some factual content with a great body of invented speculative material". The difficulty for the reader is identifying which aspects of the story are based on fact and which are speculative - frustrating if you want a clear factual account of the case but a good device from the author's perspective as Gebler cannot be accused of inventing facts or blackening the names of real people. It is interesting to note that Gebler got a lot encouragement from Marcus Bourke when decidig to write the novel. I am certain Marcus Bourke knew a lot about the case that wasn't included in his own book for legal or other reasons.

Two things jumped out at me in particular. One is a letter from Miss Cooney of Garranlea House to John Timoney, Gleeson's solictor, written over a year after the execution. Miss Cooney states that Moll's son admitted to her that he had been coached by Sergeant Daly to give testimony against Gleeson i.e. that Gleeson was the father of Moll's last child. I presume this is factual and based on an authentic letter.
There is also an account of a confession made by one of Moll's killers to her son and grandson in 1966. The man was terminally ill at te time. I'd love to know if this is a purely speculative account or based on something that Gebler would have heard from Moll's surviving relatives.

The problem is it is a novel and there is no way to know how much is true or based on truth

I am certain Marcus Bourke knew a lot about the case that wasn't included in his own book for legal or other reasons.

very possible and because this is a novel he is not as constrained but still the truth in it is speculative

[kfagan99]

Marcus Bourke did know more than he told us, but he left clues for those who read Murder at Marlhill carefully.

Carlo Gebler wrote The Dead Eight, a very gripping fictional account, and he has the overall truth of the matter. I recommend it to anyone interested in the case.

However examining a fictional text in detail is not the way to solve the mystery of what happened in New Inn in November 1940.

I'm trying to answer the big questions of fact in a book to be published next year.

Kieran Fagan.

(kfagan99@yahoo.com, if anyone has any information to share)

[The Woodcock]

Originally Posted by kfagan99

Marcus Bourke did know more than he told us, but he left clues for those who read Murder at Marlhill carefully.

Carlo Gebler wrote The Dead Eight, a very gripping fictional account, and he has the overall truth of the matter. I recommend it to anyone interested in the case.

However examining a fictional text in detail is not the way to solve the mystery of what happened in New Inn in November 1940.

I'm trying to answer the big questions of fact in a book to be published next year.

Kieran Fagan.

(kfagan99@yahoo.com, if anyone has any information to share)

I agree. If one reads between the lines of Murder at Marlhill the author does make a lot of hints and suggestions about what really happened. He alludes to IRA activity in the area and mentions the fact that Sgt. Daly was aware of Moll's imminent death the night before her murder (he blurted this out when drunk in a local pub).

I think the provenance of the Thursday morning shots would have to be addressed in any factual evalution of the case. If these were not the shots which killed Moll, then where did they come from?

Just wondering if you have been able to gain access to Timoney's & MacBride's papers/correspondence in relation to the case? I think they would be crucial sources.

[slievenamon fella]

any one know if any of the bookshops in clonmel have the dead eight in stock?

[yes chance]

Originally Posted by adalton95

After Just This evening studying all the inns and outs of this case by a man who has studied the case for over 50 years , And not fictional based stories but hard facts that if had been bought to the court in 1940 would have seen the Harry Gleeson case thrown out of court , I firmly ,strongly in both heart and head no that Harry Gleeson was framed in cold blood ..

who is this

[adalton95]

Originally Posted by yes chance

who is this

Who informed me ?

[yes chance]

Originally Posted by adalton95

Who informed me ?

yes you seem to say you have new evidence. are you going to enlighten us?

[Johnboy1951]

Originally Posted by kfagan99

Marcus Bourke did know more than he told us, but he left clues for those who read Murder at Marlhill carefully.

Carlo Gebler wrote The Dead Eight, a very gripping fictional account, and he has the overall truth of the matter. I recommend it to anyone interested in the case.

However examining a fictional text in detail is not the way to solve the mystery of what happened in New Inn in November 1940.

I'm trying to answer the big questions of fact in a book to be published next year.

Kieran Fagan.

(kfagan99@yahoo.com, if anyone has any information to share)

Please keep us updated on the status of your book.

Being related to a couple of families in the Marlhill area, I took great interest in this case, but singularly failed to elicit any information or even opinion from those who were alive at the time of the murder.
All I met with was silence.
None of those are now alive unfortunately, so I am left with the feeling that there was more buried about this than was ever revealed.

IMO, they have all taken the truth to their graves, and what little is available on which to base a new interpretation is insufficient for any definite conclusion.

[kfagan99]

I hope to have some news of a new book on the subject by the end of March 2013, and will post it here as soon as I am certain.