[marienbad]

Originally Posted by metaoblivia

There are plenty of specific rules by which the judges must adhere, and virtually no emphasis is placed on artistry, grace or poise. In fact, a lot of the major complaints about the way the sport is scored is that the judging system leaves little to no room for valuing artistry. Of course, you would know nothing about that as you know nothing about the sport.

The comfort I take in this is that people who share your uninformed opinions matter very little. Gymnastics and diving are some of the most popular sports in the Olympics and they're not going anywhere anytime soon.

How do you know my opinion is uninformed, I have been watching and attending olympics for over 30 years . You can't watch everything and just because I choose not to watch gymnastics etc in favour of watching other events at this olympics dos'nt mean that I don't know about them of have not watched them in the past, so less of jumping to conclusions please

Furthermore I have never impugned the level of difficulty and talent required to achieve greatness in these events , I just don't see them as sports. And their popularity has nothing to do with the issue under discussion.

The key point I am making is there is a serious element of subjectivity in the judging process and that to me rules them out as sports.

Can I ask you would you object to ballroom dancing or tango or salsa in the olympics ? And if you would object could I ask you why ?

[metaoblivia]

Originally Posted by marienbad

How do you know my opinion is uninformed, I have been watching and attending olympics for over 30 years . You can't watch everything and just because I choose not to watch gymnastics etc in favour of watching other events at this olympics dos'nt mean that I don't know about them of have not watched them in the past, so less of jumping to conclusions please

Furthermore I have never impugned the level of difficulty and talent required to achieve greatness in these events , I just don't see them as sports. And their popularity has nothing to do with the issue under discussion.

The key point I am making is there is a serious element of subjectivity in the judging process and that to me rules them out as sports.

Can I ask you would you object to ballroom dancing or tango or salsa in the olympics ? And if you would object could I ask you why ?

I'm not jumping to conclusions. I can tell from your previous post you know very little about gymnastics scoring. Fortunately, people like you who are ignorant about judged sports aren't taken seriously by the IOC, so while you can certainly have whatever opinion you want about judged sports, it won't ever make any difference.

And no, I wouldn't object to ballroom dancing as a sport if the governing sports body developed a comprehensive scoring system.

[kentreaper]

Originally Posted by metaoblivia

I wouldn't object to ballroom dancing as a sport if the governing sports body developed a comprehensive scoring system.

Steady on! Ballroom dancing is dance - not sport! Don't get carried away m8.

[Corruptedmorals]

Originally Posted by marienbad

How do you know my opinion is uninformed, I have been watching and attending olympics for over 30 years . You can't watch everything and just because I choose not to watch gymnastics etc in favour of watching other events at this olympics dos'nt mean that I don't know about them of have not watched them in the past, so less of jumping to conclusions please

Furthermore I have never impugned the level of difficulty and talent required to achieve greatness in these events , I just don't see them as sports. And their popularity has nothing to do with the issue under discussion.

The key point I am making is there is a serious element of subjectivity in the judging process and that to me rules them out as sports.

It is uninformed. Gymnastics is not judged by guidelines, it's not one judge saying 'oh that looks nice, I'll mark that up'. It is regulated by the FIG and judged currently under the 2009-2012 Code of Points. It is exhaustive, and it rules everything about a gymnast's routine. Execution starts out of 10 and goes down. Difficulty is what the gymnast has in her routine and can go down if the gymnast leaves out a connection or misses an element. Did she cross her legs when twisting? Deduct. That turn on top of the bar was past vertical? Deduct. Step on landing? Deduct. Catch the bar with bent arms? Deduct. Wobble on the beam? Deduct. Fall? Deduct massively. Land in a squat position? Deduct. Feet not together when landing? Deduct. EVERYTHING is controlled and judged according to strict rules. If the judges aren't sure after they watch something in real time, they can look at it again. If a gymnast or coach feels their start value should have been higher and that the judges didn't credit something they should have, they can appeal and it will be carefully looked at. This is how Japan went into silver in the Men's team finals.

Just because it's not as simple as who crossed the line first does NOT mean the judging is subjective or only based off a few guidelines. No sport has stricter guidelines. You would have a sport struck out of the Olympics because you don't understand what the judges are basing their scores off, and nevermind the fact that is it actually the most strict with its rules and that it is the most watched spectator sport and one that people train extremely hard for.

[marienbad]

Originally Posted by metaoblivia

I'm not jumping to conclusions. I can tell from your previous post you know very little about gymnastics scoring. Fortunately, people like you who are ignorant about judged sports aren't taken seriously by the IOC, so while you can certainly have whatever opinion you want about judged sports, it won't ever make any difference.

And no, I wouldn't object to ballroom dancing as a sport if the governing sports body developed a comprehensive scoring system.

Of course you are jumping to conclusions- one can know quite a lot about something and still not reach the same conclusion as you ! So less of the ad hominem please.

I have no problem with any of these pursuits , in spirit of the thread title - I just don't consider them sports .

And your answer on ballroom dancing would seem to indicate that you believe that anything that has a high level of difficulty and a scoring system -judged or otherwise - should be included. Is that a fair summary of your views ?

It is time we did away with or reduced or combined the Winter Olympics and re-introduced an Artistic Olyympics. That would solve the problem .

Then we could have the judged sports and the faster higher stronger sports.

[Pherekydes]

Originally Posted by marienbad

Of course you are jumping to conclusions- one can know quite a lot about something and still not reach the same conclusion as you ! So less of the ad hominem please.

That's not an ad hominem. You've been shown to be wrong, and you haven't the grace to hold up your hands and bow to the lady's superior knowledge.

I'm not a major fan of judged sports, but metaoblivia makes a very compelling argument why they should stay in. Not that Gymnastics would ever be in danger of being excluded.

[kentreaper]

Originally Posted by Gandhi

I find it nothing short of incredible that a country as small as Ireland can maintain active local clubs and school teams, all the way up to inter-county championships

You think it incredible that gaelic games have just survived - and made zero impact in the world outside?

I, like many, was forced to play the games by the CB's - one reason they still exist, as well as church support!

On the world stage, they are ignored. Their failure to gain any inroads abroad is significant; the 'religious' support has kept them alive at home with help from the foreign games rule etc. etc.

[marienbad]

Originally Posted by Pherekydes

That's not an ad hominem. You've been shown to be wrong, and you haven't the grace to hold up your hands and bow to the lady's superior knowledge.

I'm not a major fan of judged sports, but metaoblivia makes a very compelling argument why they should stay in. Not that Gymnastics would ever be in danger of being excluded.

excuse me - where have I been shown to be wrong, this is a discusssion and that poster has a view and I have a view . I have no indication of her superior knowledge or its relevance, and you likewise with mine.

I just don't think such sports should be in the olympics - which is the question the OP asked .

[Corruptedmorals]

An opinion would be 'gymnastics doesn't appeal to me, I never watch it'. Nothing wrong with that. Saying gymnastics is subjective with just guidelines is factually wrong, it's governed and judged extremely strictly. A routine starts off from the maximum score and is deducted accordingly. You act like they watch one and go 'that looked great, give her a 10 in execution'. You freely admitted that you don't even watch it, so why not admit you also know absolutely nothing about it.

Here is the current code of points. 192 pages of just loose guidelines, I am sure.
http://issuu.com/2008agwc/docs/01-1_...2012__english_

[marienbad]

[QUOTE=Corruptedmorals;80070909]An opinion would be 'gymnastics doesn't appeal to me, I never watch it'. Nothing wrong with that. Saying gymnastics is subjective with just guidelines is factually wrong, it's governed and judged extremely strictly. A routine starts off from the maximum score and is deducted accordingly. You act like they watch one and go 'that looked great, give her a 10 in execution'. You freely admitted that you don't even watch it, so why not admit you also know absolutely nothing about it.

Here is the current code of points. 192 pages of just loose guidelines, I am sure.
http://issuu.com/2008agwc/docs/01-1_...sh_[/QUOTE]

I freely admited I don't watch it this time out, as I am too interested in other sports . I am well aware of the judging system and the complexity of the ''sport''

In the context of the thread question which I repeat for those of you that seem to miss it- Sports that should'nt be in the olympics'' - I said Gymnastics,syn swimming , boxing, etc and I gave reasons why.

I would contend that any judged sport by definition must have an element of subjectivity- and that as per the OP question makes them imho canditates for exclusion

Might I asked would you include ballroom dancing in the olympics ?

[Corruptedmorals]

They do all they can to have international panels, judging has come a long way. It doesn't detract from the sport itself. Saying subjectivity may come into it is different, but as long as they are following the code of points it is not enough to favour one over the other. That's also a long way from saying it's subjective full stop.

No I would not. Dance is not a sport. Gymnastics is. The Olympics is the pinnacle of the whole sport.

[marienbad]

Originally Posted by Corruptedmorals

They do all they can to have international panels, judging has come a long way. It doesn't detract from the sport itself. Saying subjectivity may come into it is different, but as long as they are following the code of points it is not enough to favour one over the other. That's also a long way from saying it's subjective full stop.

No I would not. Dance is not a sport. Gymnastics is. The Olympics is the pinnacle of the whole sport.

If you read my posts you woulds see that it was on the issue of subjectvity that I base my whole argument . Anyone with a minimum of instruction should be able to tell who won or lost - that is not the case in those type of sports . This in no way detracts from the talent and effort required to achieve in them.

That other poster that pulled me up most definitely would have ballroom dancing, so there you go !

Why is dance not a sport ? Do you think synchronised swimming is a sport ? Or Rhythmic Gymnastics ?

[Jimoslimos]

Anything that relies on subjective judging
Gynmastics, diving, syncro swimming, boxing. I'm prepared to allow boxing should it disband judges and return to a fight to the death!

Sports where a gold medal is not the pinnacle of the sport,
Tennis, football, golf

Team sports - To me the Olympics is about individual excellence. Anyway most countries struggle to fund 1 athlete never mind a squad of hockey, basketball, etc players. Perhaps more controversially I'd get rid of the relays, or perhaps award winners a token medal segment - just to remind them the individual pursuits are king.

Swimming
Keep freestyle but get rid of the other strokes. Olympic motto - Faster Higher Stronger. Usain Bolt doesn't compete in the 100m backwards race. Similarly the walking events should be culled.

Sports where the barrier to most people is the high cost of entry.
Equestrianism, rowing, and sailing are elitist sports. Medals in them mean less than one in most T&F events.

[marienbad]

Originally Posted by Jimoslimos

Anything that relies on subjective judging
Gynmastics, diving, syncro swimming, boxing. I'm prepared to allow boxing should it disband judges and return to a fight to the death!

Sports where a gold medal is not the pinnacle of the sport,
Tennis, football, golf

Team sports - To me the Olympics is about individual excellence. Anyway most countries struggle to fund 1 athlete never mind a squad of hockey, basketball, etc players. Perhaps more controversially I'd get rid of the relays, or perhaps award winners a token medal segment - just to remind them the individual pursuits are king.

Swimming
Keep freestyle but get rid of the other strokes. Olympic motto - Faster Higher Stronger. Usain Bolt doesn't compete in the 100m backwards race. Similarly the walking events should be culled.

Sports where the barrier to most people is the high cost of entry.
Equestrianism, rowing, and sailing are elitist sports. Medals in them mean less than one in most T&F events.

I would'nt agree with all of this, but I definitely would agree with most of it.
Particularly the 1st para, and the bit on swimming- it is ridiculous that you can win 6 or 7 gold medals at one games . It devalues those medals and the medals of other sports.

[Corruptedmorals]

Originally Posted by marienbad

If you read my posts you woulds see that it was on the issue of subjectvity that I base my whole argument . Anyone with a minimum of instruction should be able to tell who won or lost - that is not the case in those type of sports . This in no way detracts from the talent and effort required to achieve in them.

That other poster that pulled me up most definitely would have ballroom dancing, so there you go !

Why is dance not a sport ? Do you think synchronised swimming is a sport ? Or Rhythmic Gymnastics ?

Most people can tell who the outright favourites are going into a gymnastics competition by looking at their routines and knowing that gymnast x has more difficulty than gymnast y. It does NOT require an indepth look at the code of points. For example, it's easy to tell looking at say Rebecca Tunney that she hadn't a chance in hell of placing within the top 5 if you look at her routines and difficulty. She has a floor start value of 5.7 and a vault score of 5.8. Therefore she hasn't a chance against those with 6.5 floors and 6.5 vaults. It's quite similar to how you would look at different swimmer and runner's personal bests and know that someone who is way down the list isn't going to be winning anytime soon.

To me, dance is an art form, not a sport. It is not governed by rules and does not have individual elements scored and judged. It is COMPLETELY subjective and when it is competed just comes down to who looked overall better doing it.

Rythmic gymnastics requires extreme flexibility (much more so than artistic gymnastics) but also, incredible co-ordination. In a way it is similar to shooting or achery or other sports that require intense hand-eye coordination. I'd happily get rid of it and replace it with acrobatic gymnastics but rythmic is judged with a code of points and with individual scoring of elements. Synch swimming I would be way more sceptical of, and would put it in the same category as cheerleading. Requires talent, teamwork and athleticism, but still much more a dance than a sport.