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29-07-2012, 21:18   #1
LeakRate
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Ryanair 738 and American 763 Incident at Barcelona

Serious enough stuff here,seems to be only appearing now even though it happened over a year ago

http://www.avherald.com/h?article=45363621&opt=0


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Accident: Ryanair B738 and American B763 at Barcelona on Apr 14th 2011, both aircraft departed despite ground collision and passenger complaints
By Simon Hradecky, created Saturday, Jul 28th 2012 18:21Z, last updated Sunday, Jul 29th 2012 13:29ZAn American Airlines Boeing 767-300, registration N366AA performing flight AA-67 from Barcelona,SP (Spain) to New York JFK,NY (USA), had taxied to the holding point runway 25L and was holding short of the runway.

A Ryanair Boeing 737-800, registration EI-EKB performing flight FR-8136 from Barcelona,SP (Spain) to Ibiza,SP (Spain) with 169 passengers and 6 crew, was taxiing along Barcelona's taxiway K for departure from runway 25L and was maneouvering to pass behind the Boeing 767-300.

A number of passengers on board of the Boeing 737-800 observed the right hand wing of the aircraft contact the tailplane of the Boeing 767-300 and rose out of their seats attracting the attention of a flight attendant. A passenger told the flight attendant, that their aircraft had hit the aircraft besides them. The flight attendant contacted the purser, who instructed her to contact the flight deck, she contacted the flight deck and informed the captain that passengers had seen their aircraft had hit another aircraft. The captain responded however everything was fine and she continued with the takeoff about 2 minutes after the Boeing 767.

Immediately after departure the passengers insisted the flight was not safe and they had collided with another aircraft, one of the passengers identified himself as an engineer. The flight attendant told the engineer that the captain had been informed and had told everything was fine. No further information was forwarded to the flight deck.

After landing in Ibiza, while disembarking, the passengers again spoke up claiming the flight had been unsafe.

During the turnaround the flight attendant informed the purser that one of the passengers observing the collision was an engineer. Neither approached the flight crew however.

Following the return flight FR-8137 the purser talked to the captain and informed her that one of the passengers observing the collision was an engineer.

In the following it was identified that the right hand winglet of the Boeing 737-800 had received damage, the Boeing 767-300 was found with damage to the left hand stabilizer following landing in New York.

Spain's CIAIAC is investigating the occurrence confirming the Boeing 737-800 had contacted a Boeing 767-300 holding short of runway 25L, the Boeing 737-800 had received damage to the right hand winglet and the Boeing 767-300 damage to the left hand stabilizer.

An internal Ryanair document forwarded to The Aviation Herald states, that none of the Ryanair crew members observed anything unusual as the taxiway was rather bumpy, it was only flight attendant #2 who became aware of the collision through the observed passenger reactions.

The damage of the left hand elevator/stabilizer of N366AA, photo taken at stand 41 at JFK (Photo: CIAIAC):
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29-07-2012, 22:40   #2
robertxxx
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Ryanair pilots would be docked pay if they weren't on time.

Id of pulled the chute!
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30-07-2012, 00:05   #3
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Wow. Now that's a story.
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30-07-2012, 03:01   #4
castie
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Absolutely crazy stuff.

Love how the fact that the passenger was an engineer makes a difference.
Likely he wouldn't know level of damage any different to a non technical passenger.

I think I would of been arrested in the same situation.
Taken my chance that it would be proven later.
No way would I of let that plane get off the ground with me on-board.
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30-07-2012, 09:52   #5
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Whiskey Tango Foxtrot??!!!!

That's bad, even for Ryanair, surely a visual inspection and/or confirmation of any damage should have been in order before either aircraft left?
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30-07-2012, 09:52   #6
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Likely he wouldn't know level of damage any different to a non technical passenger.
Perhaps not but as a pilot I would be much more interested to hear an engineers (assuming he is an aircraft engineer) opinion than a bucket and spader.

Interesting that after all of that they still made it back from Ibiza and nothing showed up on the walkaround on the ground on the Island.

What concerns me most is that as a professional pilot they didn't fess up and let the AA guys/gals know. We rely on a lot of honesty in this game and pireps are a valuable source of information to us. To let them cross the Atlantic with a potential flight control problem is quite unbelievable.

I suspect that there is more to this.

Last edited by basill; 30-07-2012 at 10:10.
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30-07-2012, 11:45   #7
keroseneboy
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Corporate culture

Is the problem with the corporate cutlure at Ryanair so severe that the flight deck crew ignore a warning of this nature from their collegues in the cabin ? If so, I would call into question Ryanair's competence to hold an AOC.
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30-07-2012, 13:20   #8
Shamrock231
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Originally Posted by keroseneboy View Post
Is the problem with the corporate cutlure at Ryanair so severe that the flight deck crew ignore a warning of this nature from their collegues in the cabin ? If so, I would call into question Ryanair's competence to hold an AOC.
Basically yes, base captains at RYR get paid extra if all of the flights under their juristriction get out on time and burn as little fuel as possible. So if you're the captain and you delay the flight, then you're gonna get a strong warning from your base captain, and if you're unlucky enough, you'll get flung of to the opposite corner of Europe to work for a couple of months, where you'll get mostly stand-bys and earn next to no money as you won't be physically flying the aircraft. So no wonder the pilot was reluctant to delay his flight....
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30-07-2012, 13:23   #9
Tenger
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There may not be a problem with the overall culture but there are definitely some flaws highlighted in this particular case.

-Did the FR B737 follow ground ctrl instructions correctly?
-Did the AA B767 follow ground ctrl instructions correctly?
-Is the tower/ground ctrl at fault?
-How then did 2 aircraft make contact if both followed 'correct' instructions?
-Was the F/O looking at the clearance on the starboard side?
-What were the factors that lead to the flight deck ignoring warnings given to them from the cabin crew?
-Did the purser not transfer the information correctly?
-Did the flight crew not believe the cabin crew?
-Why did the #2 crew member not address the issue directly to the captain on turnaround?

The article says the captain was demoted, I can't believe that he/she is still allowed to fly. Safety is paramount in modern aviation.

EDIT: Having read comments about the turnaround, in fairness to the FR flight crew, if the upper edge of the winglet impacted the underside of the B767 tail then any damage would be pretty difficult to spot from the ground.

Last edited by Tenger; 30-07-2012 at 19:43.
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30-07-2012, 14:44   #10
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Originally Posted by basill View Post
Interesting that after all of that they still made it back from Ibiza and nothing showed up on the walkaround on the ground on the Island.
.
They were aware of it in Ibiza. The Captain said that during the turnaround in Ibiza that she personally did the walkaround and saw some scratches on the winglet but didn't think them of any significance and didn't call maintenance because there was no Ryanair engineers on the island and they'd have to be flown in. As it happened the damage wasn't significant and when it was inspected it didn't require repairs.

The official report answers most questions raised here (from about page 220); http://www.fomento.gob.es/NR/rdonlyr...97/02_2012.pdf
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30-07-2012, 19:42   #11
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[QUOTE=bkehoe;79984126]They were aware of it in Ibiza. The Captain said that during the turnaround in Ibiza that she personally did the walkaround and saw some scratches on the winglet but didn't think them of any significance and didn't call maintenance because there was no Ryanair engineers on the island and they'd have to be flown in. As it happened the damage wasn't significant and when it was inspected it didn't require repairs.

The official report answers most questions raised here (from about page 220); http://www.fomento.gob.es/NR/rdonlyr...pdf[/QUOTE]

Oh Oh here we go....women drivers and all that, i reckon she is a great flyer though.
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30-07-2012, 20:21   #12
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Thats stunning. Especially as regards to composite structures, could lead to de lamination, as most people know composites are notorious for looking fine after a impact but being internally damaged.

Last edited by kona; 30-07-2012 at 20:24.
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30-07-2012, 20:48   #13
stopthepanic
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Originally Posted by Tenger View Post
-How then did 2 aircraft make contact if both followed 'correct' instructions?
ATC will issue an instruction, it is up to the pilots to ensure that those instructions are followed safely.

You will regularly hear at Dublin instructions along the lines of 'When the XX aircraft is clear, proceed along etc etc'.

Just because a traffic light goes green it doesn't mean you drive into the car in front of you.

p.s. I do not work for the IAA.
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30-07-2012, 20:53   #14
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Originally Posted by Shamrock231 View Post
Basically yes, base captains at RYR get paid extra if all of the flights under their juristriction get out on time and burn as little fuel as possible. So if you're the captain and you delay the flight, then you're gonna get a strong warning from your base captain, and if you're unlucky enough, you'll get flung of to the opposite corner of Europe to work for a couple of months, where you'll get mostly stand-bys and earn next to no money as you won't be physically flying the aircraft. So no wonder the pilot was reluctant to delay his flight....
absolute bollox.
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30-07-2012, 20:58   #15
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If the pilot was going to take off after that, I would have opened the door, or at least tried to if I saw it happen. They wouln't take off with a passenger who was willing to try that. Wouldn't really care if I was arrested afterwards.
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