[ianuss]

Originally Posted by joker77

Ok, I'll try this take on it jt

Irish people have a MAJOR problem with taking personal responsibility, and like to complain an awful lot about things rather than trying to change things.

While I kind of agree, I think the real problem in this country is the absolute non-existence of accountability, right across the board. In both business and political life it's like a cancer. It's absolutely shameful.

I could write a thesis on it. Even if you only look at the past few months you have Mick Wallace. A man who admitted on national radio that he KNOWINGLY underpaid VAT (committed fraud), because if he declared the correct rates, he would have gone out of of business. Yeah Mick, that's how business works! Nothing is done. Stays in his position, retains his salary and future pension rights. Wallace was a story in the media for a week. Then it's forgotten about. The man is a criminal. This is just a crazy, crazy scenario.

Then you have Joe Higgins, a man I used to have complete respect for, and he's defending Wallace. Saying it's the people (voters) of Wexford that Wallace is accountable to, not the nation. And Joe Higgins then, about a week later admits to fraudulently using govt. expenses to travel to events around the country. He tries to claim that he was within his rights as his party is a small party and he couldn't go otherwise. When it's pointed out that this use of the expenses is clearly NOT covered by Dail legislation, again, nothing gets done. It's almost a non-story. And again, he's stealing from the State - nothing gets done.

And that's before I even mention Denis O'Brien, Michael Lowry, Ivor Callely or Bertie. This is just the last couple of months.

Or going further back..... any of the banking related figures, the law firms or audit firms who acted completely incompetently without ever having to face an examination of their practices. Those same audit firms are now advising NAMA and getting paid enormous sums of money. (BTW, the average salary in NAMA is over €100,000. AVERAGE salary for ~200 people is €100,000.)

If you look across the Irish Sea at Britain. If you get caught there, you're out. Diamond got bombed as soon as the sh1t hit the fan over the LIBOR rates. Politicians are regularly bombed for getting caught up in any scandal. And when you compare that to the complete disregard for the rule of law and absence of any sort of ethical standards in Ireland it becomes rage inducing. The mainstream media in this country have to take a HUGE part of the blame. The lack of reporting is mind boggling at times.

There's an acceptance in this country of shockingly poor standards in all walks of life, media, sports, health services, transport etc etc etc.

And as for trying to effect change, it is virtually impossible. There is widespread acceptance that this is just the way things are.

[Clanket]

Originally Posted by jtsuited

it's very difficult to remain of the opinion you are infallible though if you are just presented with a very strong well worked out argument contrary to your opinion though.

This does not seem to apply to a lot of people in Ireland.

Take the property tax. Not one person can give me a valid reason why this tax is more unjust or unfair than any other tax, yet I can present an argument to them with numerous valid points on why the property tax is a necessity at the moment (it's especially interesting asking them why they don't go mad about the USC, or the increase in VAT, instead of the property tax). The only conclusion I can come to is that Irish people are completely obsessed by property, and if a tax affects it, they throw all reason out the window.

Then there's the debate on drugs. Or the fact that a lot of people believe that video games are responsible for mass murders. The list of subjects is endless, where a well presented argument based on truth and reason will not change someones mind. No matter how strong the case.

A lot of people seem to make up their mind on a topic and are completely unwilling to properly listen to an argument from the other side, never mind changing their mind.

[Clanket]

Absoluely agree Ianuss. The lack of accountability is disgraceful. The fact that some of the same people that created the mess are involved in trying to sort it out is just ridiculous.

[jtsuited]

Originally Posted by Clanket

This does not seem to apply to a lot of people in Ireland.

Take the property tax. Not one person can give me a valid reason why this tax is more unjust or unfair than any other tax, yet I can present an argument to them with numerous valid points on why the property tax is a necessity at the moment (it's especially interesting asking them why they don't go mad about the USC, or the increase in VAT, instead of the property tax). The only conclusion I can come to is that Irish people are completely obsessed by property, and if a tax affects it, they throw all reason out the window.

Then there's the debate on drugs. Or the fact that a lot of people believe that video games are responsible for mass murders. The list of subjects is endless, where a well presented argument based on truth and reason will not change someones mind. No matter how strong the case.

A lot of people seem to make up their mind on a topic and are completely unwilling to properly listen to an argument from the other side, never mind changing their mind.

well, present to them your argument, explain to them their argument (to show you fully understand it), and then explain why they're wrong. if they're simply ignoring your argument, call them ignorant. If they're coming from a place of irrational emotive arguments, tell them.

If people who came out with sh1te constantly got the intellectual smack-down thrown on them every so often, they'd think twice before opening their mouths.

[Clanket]

You know the old saying though, never argue with a fool. They'll bring you down to their level then beat you because they're better at it.

I have to admit that a lot of the time I don't even bother arguing with people who clearly are never going to change their mind. It's a pointless exercise that just ends up frustrating you.

[jtsuited]

Originally Posted by Clanket

You know the old saying though, never argue with a fool. They'll bring you down to their level then beat you because they're better at it.

yeah but never let a fool walk away without being reminded of the fact.

[joker77]

Originally Posted by ianuss

While I kind of agree, I think the real problem in this country is the absolute non-existence of accountability, right across the board. In both business and political life it's like a cancer. It's absolutely shameful.

I could write a thesis on it. Even if you only look at the past few months you have Mick Wallace. A man who admitted on national radio that he KNOWINGLY underpaid VAT (committed fraud), because if he declared the correct rates, he would have gone out of of business. Yeah Mick, that's how business works! Nothing is done. Stays in his position, retains his salary and future pension rights. Wallace was a story in the media for a week. Then it's forgotten about. The man is a criminal. This is just a crazy, crazy scenario.

Then you have Joe Higgins, a man I used to have complete respect for, and he's defending Wallace. Saying it's the people (voters) of Wexford that Wallace is accountable to, not the nation. And Joe Higgins then, about a week later admits to fraudulently using govt. expenses to travel to events around the country. He tries to claim that he was within his rights as his party is a small party and he couldn't go otherwise. When it's pointed out that this use of the expenses is clearly NOT covered by Dail legislation, again, nothing gets done. It's almost a non-story. And again, he's stealing from the State - nothing gets done.

And that's before I even mention Denis O'Brien, Michael Lowry, Ivor Callely or Bertie. This is just the last couple of months.

Or going further back..... any of the banking related figures, the law firms or audit firms who acted completely incompetently without ever having to face an examination of their practices. Those same audit firms are now advising NAMA and getting paid enormous sums of money. (BTW, the average salary in NAMA is over €100,000. AVERAGE salary for ~200 people is €100,000.)

If you look across the Irish Sea at Britain. If you get caught there, you're out. Diamond got bombed as soon as the sh1t hit the fan over the LIBOR rates. Politicians are regularly bombed for getting caught up in any scandal. And when you compare that to the complete disregard for the rule of law and absence of any sort of ethical standards in Ireland it becomes rage inducing. The mainstream media in this country have to take a HUGE part of the blame. The lack of reporting is mind boggling at times.

There's an acceptance in this country of shockingly poor standards in all walks of life, media, sports, health services, transport etc etc etc.

And as for trying to effect change, it is virtually impossible. There is widespread acceptance that this is just the way things are.

Completely agree - it's rage enducing. Or it was, now - I just accept it unfortunately.

What you've written reminds of when I was in secondary school - 5th year I think - and there were two people I knew (one a girl in school, the other a fella in work) who were from very FF families. There were a number of high profile scandals at the time - a lot involved Brian Lenihan Sr, and Charlie Haughey. Both of these people stood up for the chancers involved, and the overriding memory I have was the lad saying to me - "Think about what you would have done in their situation - sure you would have taken the money".

That summed it up really. The acceptance. And not just acceptance - it was expected. If you look at all the names you've listed there - O'Brien, Lowry, Callely, Bertie - the culture here is to be on the take, back handers, so when somebody does get caught out - sure they can't throw the book at them because everyone is at it and everyone is watching their own back (and has dirt on everyone else).

So in reply Ian - I don't think accountability is necessarily the solution - because I can't see it happening anytime soon - there's too many people involved.

People have to be accountable to themselves.

[ianuss]

Originally Posted by Clanket

Absoluely agree Ianuss. The lack of accountability is disgraceful. The fact that some of the same people that created the mess are involved in trying to sort it out is just ridiculous.

The British used to openly mock our system of governance. During The Troubles they couldn't understand how our security forces were allowed to investigate themselves. They called it a 'typically Irish solution'. And that's a situation that's only (relevantly) recently been changed. Accountability in Ireland is only a buzzword, it doesn't really exist in real life.

When you consider that we're a country run by teachers, under-qualified civil servants and a shower of inept ex-schools rugby douchebags, it's not hard to see why we're such a banana republic.

[ianuss]

Originally Posted by joker77

People have to be accountable to themselves.

But we're Catholics, we answer to God.

[kunst nugget]

Originally Posted by joker77

People have to be accountable to themselves.

I know I am. Every morning, I look at myself in the mirror and I ask 'Andrew, how's your accounting?' and I answer back, 'Just fine, Andrew, just fine...'

Then I steal some sweets of innocent babies with a smile on my face and a spring in my step.

[ianuss]

Originally Posted by joker77

the culture here is to be on the take, back handers, so when somebody does get caught out - sure they can't throw the book at them because everyone is at it and everyone is watching their own back (and has dirt on everyone else).

Your point is summed up nicely in this blog piece, written today coincidentally (if I was a member of the media I would have said 'ironically' instead of 'coincidentally') . http://www.publicinquiry.eu/2012/07/...with-us-today/

[joker77]

I've heard it argued that a lot of these issues stem from being colonists for so long.

I'm very undecided on that one.

[joker77]

Originally Posted by ianuss

But we're Catholics, we answer to God.

We're all sinners here, that's bet into us from a young age.

Let he without sin cast the first stone.... Maybe that's why the lack of accountabililty - it's all the Church's fault.

[milltown]

Originally Posted by joker77

Completely agree - it's rage enducing. Or it was, now - I just accept it unfortunately.

What you've written reminds of when I was in secondary school - 5th year I think - and there were two people I knew (one a girl in school, the other a fella in work) who were from very FF families. There were a number of high profile scandals at the time - a lot involved Brian Lenihan Sr, and Charlie Haughey. Both of these people stood up for the chancers involved, and the overriding memory I have was the lad saying to me - "Think about what you would have done in their situation - sure you would have taken the money".

That summed it up really. The acceptance. And not just acceptance - it was expected. If you look at all the names you've listed there - O'Brien, Lowry, Callely, Bertie - the culture here is to be on the take, back handers, so when somebody does get caught out - sure they can't throw the book at them because everyone is at it and everyone is watching their own back (and has dirt on everyone else).

So in reply Ian - I don't think accountability is necessarily the solution - because I can't see it happening anytime soon - there's too many people involved.

People have to be accountable to themselves.

Maybe it's more hope on my part than actual change, but I think some things are slowly changing. When I started working, 23 years ago, the black economy was arguably the main economy. The bulk of most people's wages was cash in hand and if you were paying cash for something, being charged VAT was out of the question. My apprentice wage went through the books but on a good week I'd have twice as much cash in my wage packet as was on my cheque. That sort of carry on seems to have largely died out.

Likewise, people who worked for cash and ducked out for an hour once a week to sign on used to be lauded for milking the system. Nowadays, most people won't stand for it and the guy who used to brag about the plethora of benefits the social welfare and eastern health board used to hand him keeps his mouth shut, lest any civic minded do-gooder shops him on one of the confidential phone lines. I'm under no illusions as to the numbers still fleecing the taxpayer but the system still needs to change so a six figure salary isn't required to match the lifestyle some people have without doing a tap. But I can see change.

The cute hoor politics must surely change too. The above two paragraphs show how we, the commoners, have changed (IMO). Living in Lucan I have the pleasure of driving past Adamstown regularly. The future of town planning and a shining light to show how future developments should be. Except **** all of the headline features ever showed up. The school only opened last year and the train station is buried at the back of the place, so even if you live there you probably still have to drive to the station, which is so secluded that your car will probably have been broken into by the time you've commuted back to your home of the future. I also get to pass Liam Lawlor's pad/estate almost daily (I keep an eye out for him. That Russian car crash death story seemed far too convenient for my liking, but that's for another forum), and see the sort of spread that crooked politics and bogey planning coercion can buy. We saw Lowry disgraced, ejected from his party and re-elected within a year. Arguably with more power than he ever had before because the independents held the balance of power in that government.
Callely's expenses, the shinners' printing bills, Wallace's VAT, Jim Reilly in Stubb's Gazette. It can't be long before a serving politician gets a stretch in jail surely?
The people have slowly changed. The people they elect can be reasonably expected to change too. Can't they?

[ianuss]

Originally Posted by milltown

Arguably with more power than he ever had before because the independents held the balance of power in that government.
Callely's expenses, the shinners' printing bills, Wallace's VAT, Jim Reilly in Stubb's Gazette. It can't be long before a serving politician gets a stretch in jail surely?
The people have slowly changed. The people they elect can be reasonably expected to change too. Can't they?

One word answer, 'No'.

Lowry's 'power' in politics is almost solely based on his ability as a fundraiser. He is, and always has been a cash cow. He was even mooted as a potential leader of FG earlier in his career but lost out to Bruton (another huge earner). The recent presidential election highlighted the importance placed upon fundraising in Irish poilitics/business. Until political donations are made 100% transparent, we'll never get anywhere.

I actually find it impossible to expect any change in terms of accountability or application of the law in Ireland. Although Lawlor went to prison, it was for contempt. The Court's have shown to uphold the law in that regard. But when it comes to white collar crime there is zero evidence that anything will change.

Judge a man by his actions, not his words. And when you look at the complete failure of various supposed regulating institutions, it becomes apparent that there is no appetite for change. The ODCE is a fantastic example of the utter pointlessness of some institutions. If you want a laugh you should read their annual report. They're happy to point to custodial sentences secured as a result of their investigations as proof of their effectiveness, but when you look at the cases in question, you see it's all for show.

The most high profile case being two brothers sent to jail for failure to pay employee pension benefits. Justice Peter Kelly recently scolded the ODCE in court for their pathetic and painfully slow attempt at compiling a case with regards to Anglo.

Not to mention the fact that Appleby tried to resign when he realised his pension was about to be slashed. Absolute bunch of w4nkers running this country. And nothing will change because turkeys won't vote for Christmas.

Even the Central Bank and IFSRA are dirty. They knew about the ponzi scheme being run by the Custom House Capital gang and did nothing. They fleeced people out of their life savings and nothing happened. Nothing?! You could do worse things than read this http://www.thepropertypin.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=39520 . If it wasn't so tragic it would be hilarious.

Lads, I could go on and on and on about this all day. I've barely mentioned O'Brien, I haven't mentioned tribunals or Haughey. It's fukcing endless.



edit; the only reason the black market has shrunk is because the State needed its coffers filled so it gave extra powers to the Revenue to clamp down.