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20-07-2012, 13:28   #241
Peetrik
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Originally Posted by Tim_Murphy View Post
If by 'traditional' you mean the type of goofy nonsense seen in martial arts
I think that's exactly what he means.

Personally I find the notion that 'its not real martial arts' without mandatory titles/uniforms/belts as tiresome as the MMA people must find juicers in tap-out clothing who rarely actually train but call themselves 'cage fighters'.

Sure, respect your coach, buy him a pint (or a snickers) but all the time spent bowing and reciting the rules of fight club in ancient Chinese is time wasted when you could be learning Martial arts.

Boxing and MMA are much more valid as martial arts than any styles that put more value on tradition or pomp than actual fighting.

Just my 2c
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20-07-2012, 13:41   #242
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Sure, respect your coach, buy him a pint (or a snickers)...
Think I might put that quote up on the wall in Point Blank, but will probably change the or to an and.
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20-07-2012, 13:56   #243
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Originally Posted by Peetrik View Post
Sure, respect your coach, buy him a pint (or a snickers)
A what?.



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20-07-2012, 17:53   #244
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For me all the stuff like the katas and forms and impracticall stuff like aikdo blocking are what turned me off martial arts when i was younger
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21-07-2012, 08:06   #245
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Originally Posted by Crash Override View Post
Does the art only teach grappling and ground techniques or this there otehr self defense techniques like against knife attacks etc?


Have you done any other martial arts and if so do you still feel BJJ to be most usefull?
Bjj doesn't teach you how to defend against knives, it's all grappling and sports based, but I'd be more confident of a Bjj player disarming a knife attacker than a Krav maga guy who trains it!!!Wayne you can borrow mine if you can pick it up in rush

I train MMA, Bjj and Boxing and have trained Freestyle wrestling and touched on judo to a small degree, also done Kenpo as my 1st effort into Martial arts and how useless I found it nearly put me off martial arts, 1st week in Boxing was an eye opener to training methods and the same is through of Mma judo Bjj and wrestling.
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21-07-2012, 11:38   #246
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Originally Posted by Crash Override View Post
Does the art only teach grappling and ground techniques or this there otehr self defense techniques like against knife attacks etc?
Unless you're in an industry in which a knife attack is highly likely I wouldn't bother training for one.

Happens that I am, I've done a few knife defence seminars and it was covered by a course syllabus I'd to do in work and honest to God I found it all completely useless.

I've been in two knife fights, and once was attacked (threatened) with a syringe.

First time for all the training in disarming someone I couldn't get the knife out of the guys hand (we were on the ground) so whilst kneeling on his arm I punched his damned face in until the cops arrived.

Second time, actually outside The Mez in Templebar. I low leg kicked the dude, went in an RNC'd him while my mate give him a few clatters, he passed out and the knife fell.

The syringe was a chic, gave her a kick in the gee tbh.

Sorry I hate posting up that crap because it sounds like hard man BS, but the point I'd like to take from it was that training in Judo, BJJ and striking gave me the tools to more effectively deal with that situation (knife attacks) than anything else.
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22-07-2012, 18:14   #247
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Originally Posted by cowzerp View Post
I train MMA, Bjj and Boxing and have trained Freestyle wrestling and touched on judo to a small degree, also done Kenpo as my 1st effort into Martial arts and how useless I found it nearly put me off martial arts, 1st week in Boxing was an eye opener to training methods and the same is through of Mma judo Bjj and wrestling.
What was it, in your opinion, that you found useless about Kenpo? I tried Kenpo myself briefly but I didn't really like it either.

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Sorry I hate posting up that crap because it sounds like hard man BS, but the point I'd like to take from it was that training in Judo, BJJ and striking gave me the tools to more effectively deal with that situation (knife attacks) than anything else.
That's cool I never really thought of it like that. I would like to try something that is more 'street' based.

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If by 'traditional' you mean the type of goofy nonsense seen in martial arts like TKD and Karate then yes, MMA does lack most of that.
If you consider MMA a martial art then I assume you consider yourself a martial artist. In my opinion martial artists are supposed to respect each other and their respective martial arts and not slate them by calling there Traditions 'goofy nonsense'. In MMA (in the UFC anyway) you have all this trash talking and unsportsman-like conduct which I would consider more to be 'goofy nonsense' than Traditions.

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This only happens in things with TKD where you have a light contact sporting part and then the ‘self defence’ part, which is generally just silly routines of made up techniques.
As apposed to non made-up techniques

Also I disagree with techniques being silly. I have used these techniques I have learned successfully in Self defense situations. Another reason why I think TKD is not a useless MA like most people think.
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22-07-2012, 19:45   #248
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That's cool I never really thought of it like that. I would like to try something that is more 'street' based.
I could be wrong, but I thought Maki's whole point was that the 'street' knife disarms he had trained weren't effective for him and in the end he just used his Judo/Striking which got the job done.

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In my opinion martial artists are supposed to respect each other and their respective martial arts and not slate them by calling there Traditions 'goofy nonsense'.
Well there is a big difference between being respectful and being gullible. In the interest of having a frank open discussion lets speak plainly. I love my own striking art.. but I'm fully aware that I wouldn't last any amount of time on the ground against a BJJ player with similar experience.
By the same token, TKD is a fun sport, I enjoyed it immensely when I trained it, but trying to imply that it's just as effective as MMA is just silly and does nothing for your credibility.

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Also I disagree with techniques being silly. I have used these techniques I have learned successfully in Self defense situations.
Ah let's be honest, TKD is rife with techniques that are plain silly, trying to throw a 720 kick in an actual fight or a splits kick against two non compliant opponents is just retarded and will get you your arse handed to you.
Now don't get me wrong, there are a couple of very effective techniques from TKD, once again it boils down to how its trained.
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22-07-2012, 20:25   #249
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Originally Posted by Peetrik View Post
I could be wrong, but I thought Maki's whole point was that the 'street' knife disarms he had trained weren't effective for him and in the end he just used his Judo/Striking which got the job done.
Sorry that was me being too vague with what I was saying. I understood his point. I should have said I wantd to do something that would have more or better application on the street. Not necessarily 'street' knife disarms.

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Well there is a big difference between being respectful and being gullible.In the interest of having a frank open discussion lets speak plainly. I love my own striking art.. but I'm fully aware that I wouldn't last any amount of time on the ground against a BJJ player with similar experience
I completely agree. The master in that video was obviously an idiot and is what is wrong with martial arts in this time. My point about the respect was that think it's unfair to call a martial arts' traditions, 'goofy nonsense' just because it doesn't have any real application in a proper self defense situation. I like to think MA's is just as much mental as it is in physical. I like to think those traditions help create that balance.

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By the same token, TKD is a fun sport, I enjoyed it immensely when I trained it, but trying to imply that it's just as effective as MMA is just silly and does nothing for your credibility.
I was never trying to imply it was just as effective as MMA, not sure where you got that from. I was trying to imply that I think TKD is still a usefull art as I've used it in Self Defense situations effectively. The only reason MMA is a topic now is because I don't consider it an actual Martial Art and people disagreed.


Quote:
Ah let's be honest, TKD is rife with techniques that are plain silly, trying to throw a 720 kick in an actual fight or a splits kick against two non compliant opponents is just retarded and will get you your arse handed to you. Now don't get me wrong, there are a couple of very effective techniques from TKD, once again it boils down to how its trained.
I agree completely but you'd have to be very foolish to think that you're actually supposed use those in a self defense situation. I think those kicks are just for demonstration shows, and I actually like them as they show that the human body is capable of many great things. But in saying that I of course would never advocate the use of it in the street. That was something hammered into us when we learned them for a brief period.

As you have said, its more to do with the way it is taught. I was taught the quick simple techniques for self defence and that it what I use. I learned the other stuff because its part of the art.
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22-07-2012, 20:31   #250
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Silly is what silly does (apologies to Forest Gump)

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Originally Posted by Crash Override View Post
Also I disagree with techniques being silly.
I consider myself a traditional martial artist, though I'd have to be honest enough to say that Karate is more of a pastime than a full-on Budo for me (though it takes many hours of my week, every week). I do understand why people perceive some of the "Traditional" training methods as being "silly", but in the main I've found it's a perception born out of a lack of understanding of the history of many of the TMAs.

Arts such as Karate were traditionally taught in Japan as a form of exercise, because that was the aspect in which Gichin Funakoshi was primarily interested. Furthermore Funakoshi was a pacifist and did not wish to encourage any form of fighting. So the exercises in Karate build up from a very, very basic training curriculum of kicks, steps, blocks and punches. A practitioner can spend years doing just this, and in real terms the skills he or she learns in the first year would be less useful in self-defence than a good pair of Nike runners.

Sadly many people who reach Black Belt level quit real training and open their own clubs, passing on their limited knowledge in a way which ensures that anything useful the art has to offer never gets passed on. I've seen "McDojo" clubs (Karate and other TMAs) where nobody training in the hall had gone beyond "beginner" skill levels (all techniques fall short of the target, no fluidity in movement, no discernible power being generated etc) even though many wore black belts. Kumite (fighting drills) in such clubs are performed in such a manner as to appear "silly" to anyone who has ever seen a street fight in progress, and many of the practitioners simply don't understand that their efforts are no more than aerobically beneficial.

I do still enjoy the practising of kata, as it really is the heart of the art. The benefit of kata is not so much that it teaches you to fight (it may help, but only in a very, very minor sense). Rather I find that kata provides a means of building your focus, improving your balance and speed, and if taught correctly the kata holds a library of drills which can be practised separately to apply your karate for self-defence purposes. The trick is to find an instructor who bothered to find decent drills in the kata, and then includes these in regular training. All too few clubs do that. Many of the bunkai (applications) that are taught are very simplistic interpretations which require a fascinating level of cooperation by the attacker, a point which is often missed while practising these drills.

Now back to the theme of this thread. If a MA is taught honestly and trained diligently then the practitioner should be better able to defend themselves than they were prior to training. If, like myself, you are relatively small and light, then your self-defence prowess is naturally less than a stronger, heavier, faster & more aggressive individual, but your MA training can partially compensate for that.

So yes, some TMA training looks silly, and where an instructor cannot go beyond this initial training to teach something worthwhile then it may well be silly. Respect for other MA's is certainly a laudable aspiration, and our Dojo Ku'un demands it, but we should not be afraid to call it for what it is when it's clear that a student has been duped into learning nothing more than the basic movements of an art and told that this will work in a real life-threatening situation. I'd opt for the Nike runners nine times out of ten!

Be at peace,

Z
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22-07-2012, 20:39   #251
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Originally Posted by Zen65 View Post
I consider myself a traditional martial artist, though I'd have to be honest enough to say that Karate is more of a pastime than a full-on Budo for me (though it takes many hours of my week, every week). I do understand why people perceive some of the "Traditional" training methods as being "silly", but in the main I've found it's a perception born out of a lack of understanding of the history of many of the TMAs.

Arts such as Karate were traditionally taught in Japan as a form of exercise, because that was the aspect in which Gichin Funakoshi was primarily interested. Furthermore Funakoshi was a pacifist and did not wish to encourage any form of fighting. So the exercises in Karate build up from a very, very basic training curriculum of kicks, steps, blocks and punches. A practitioner can spend years doing just this, and in real terms the skills he or she learns in the first year would be less useful in self-defence than a good pair of Nike runners.

Sadly many people who reach Black Belt level quit real training and open their own clubs, passing on their limited knowledge in a way which ensures that anything useful the art has to offer never gets passed on. I've seen "McDojo" clubs (Karate and other TMAs) where nobody training in the hall had gone beyond "beginner" skill levels (all techniques fall short of the target, no fluidity in movement, no discernible power being generated etc) even though many wore black belts. Kumite (fighting drills) in such clubs are performed in such a manner as to appear "silly" to anyone who has ever seen a street fight in progress, and many of the practitioners simply don't understand that their efforts are no more than aerobically beneficial.

I do still enjoy the practising of kata, as it really is the heart of the art. The benefit of kata is not so much that it teaches you to fight (it may help, but only in a very, very minor sense). Rather I find that kata provides a means of building your focus, improving your balance and speed, and if taught correctly the kata holds a library of drills which can be practised separately to apply your karate for self-defence purposes. The trick is to find an instructor who bothered to find decent drills in the kata, and then includes these in regular training. All too few clubs do that. Many of the bunkai (applications) that are taught are very simplistic interpretations which require a fascinating level of cooperation by the attacker, a point which is often missed while practising these drills.

Now back to the theme of this thread. If a MA is taught honestly and trained diligently then the practitioner should be better able to defend themselves than they were prior to training. If, like myself, you are relatively small and light, then your self-defence prowess is naturally less than a stronger, heavier, faster & more aggressive individual, but your MA training can partially compensate for that.

So yes, some TMA training looks silly, and where an instructor cannot go beyond this initial training to teach something worthwhile then it may well be silly. Respect for other MA's is certainly a laudable aspiration, and our Dojo Ku'un demands it, but we should not be afraid to call it for what it is when it's clear that a student has been duped into learning nothing more than the basic movements of an art and told that this will work in a real life-threatening situation. I'd opt for the Nike runners nine times out of ten!

Be at peace,

Z
Good post. Very intersting read. I agree it seems nowadays all clubs are at beginner level stadaard and never grow past it. I guess I was lucky enough to find a club that is not like that.

Quote:
If a MA is taught honestly and trained diligently then the practitioner should be better able to defend themselves than they were prior to training.
This is very true. This is why I don't think any Martial Art is useless (if trained properly).

And yes, Opting for the Nike Trainers is always the best solution to a self defense situation.

Peace.
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22-07-2012, 20:43   #252
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Well there is a big difference between being respectful and being gullible.
That clip of the old man being taken out so easily annoys me immensely (though, yes, I do laugh occasionally when I see it). It's not the old man I blame, but rather his students who allowed him to believe that his techniques actually worked. Somewhere along the way he lost the plot, as did his students.

I once briefly trained with somebody who taught similar nonsense and believed it was an invincible system. Even when it clearly did not work for his students when they partnered with me (and I make no claims about my own prowess; I consider myself to be very average), he persisted in telling his students that this was a very effective system. After three months I left his school as he just lost so much credibility each week in my eyes.

Z
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22-07-2012, 20:50   #253
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And yes, Opting for the Nike Trainers is always the best solution to a self defense situation.

Peace.
So all other types of trainers are useless??
Adidas/Reebok, etc have always worked fine for me!

Maybe wearing one adidas and one nike would be more effective though, we could call it Mixed Trainer Running
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22-07-2012, 20:52   #254
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So all other types of trainers are useless??
Adidas/Reebok, etc have always worked fine for me!

Maybe wearing one adidas and one nike would be more effective though, we could call it Mixed Trainer Running
Nah they're all useless, I run barefoot!
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22-07-2012, 20:55   #255
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What was it, in your opinion, that you found useless about Kenpo? I tried Kenpo myself briefly but I didn't really like it either
the training was all posing and doing forms and black belts who could do patterns all day long but could not fight or punch kick effectively, basically aerobics without music-add in a press ups on your knuckles on the hard floor
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