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09-07-2012, 10:00   #16
Donny5
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tthe 2 QE class carriers will be better at providing strike and CAS than any RN capability in the modern era.
The one QE Class carrier, assuming it's commissioned and that their are aircraft to fly from her - both big ifs at the minute.
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09-07-2012, 10:21   #17
tac foley
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mixed eu forces ? theres eu forces in the uk at the moment ?
There are NO mixed EU forces in the UK - anywhere.

The last time a large number of foreign troops came over to UK was in September of 1066.

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09-07-2012, 10:28   #18
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The one QE Class carrier, assuming it's commissioned and that their are aircraft to fly from her - both big ifs at the minute.
both now - both are now 'funded', and both will, under current plans, be commissioned. the point about what will fly off them is well made - F-35B is still a technical, and more pointedly, a financial risk.

obviously, if it falls then we have a problem - we can open up both fully built carriers, fit cat and traps retrospectively, and buy F/A-18E/F instead of F-35B at an astonishing, eye-watering cost, or operate two 60,000 ton helicopter carriers.

my own view is that F-35B will muddle through, it will be much more expensive, and less capable than 'C', but its cost will still be less than buying 'C' and retrospectively fitting Cat and traps to the carriers in 2018 or so - and more politically acceptable than two carriers with nothing to carry.

i'd lay reasonable money on a smaller F-35B buy than desired, with a mixed airgroup of marinised AH-64, troop carrying Merlin, ASW Merlin, and an AEW/AWACS Merlin - with TLAM capability on the Astutes being enhanced to make up the shortfall of F-35B in the strike role.
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09-07-2012, 10:54   #19
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There are NO mixed EU forces in the UK - anywhere.

The last time a large number of foreign troops came over to UK was in September of 1066.

tac
Well, on the last day of 2011, there were 9,317 American Troops alone in the U.K., and that doesn't include Diego Garcia.

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both now - both are now 'funded', and both will, under current plans, be commissioned. the point about what will fly off them is well made - F-35B is still a technical, and more pointedly, a financial risk.

obviously, if it falls then we have a problem - we can open up both fully built carriers, fit cat and traps retrospectively, and buy F/A-18E/F instead of F-35B at an astonishing, eye-watering cost, or operate two 60,000 ton helicopter carriers.

my own view is that F-35B will muddle through, it will be much more expensive, and less capable than 'C', but its cost will still be less than buying 'C' and retrospectively fitting Cat and traps to the carriers in 2018 or so - and more politically acceptable than two carriers with nothing to carry.

i'd lay reasonable money on a smaller F-35B buy than desired, with a mixed airgroup of marinised AH-64, troop carrying Merlin, ASW Merlin, and an AEW/AWACS Merlin - with TLAM capability on the Astutes being enhanced to make up the shortfall of F-35B in the strike role.
Both carriers are now funded, but they're easy targets and there's a lot of budgets between now and their expected entry into service. As for the F-35B, it's almost guaranteed that it will be entered into service because the U.S. has eleven very expensive amphibious assault ships that can't fly the C model. However, I wouldn't be surprised if the U.K. doesn't buy it, as there are currently no orders for B models outside the USMC. I also wouldn't be surprised if 2020 rolls around and the UK's carriers have been quietly forgotten.
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09-07-2012, 11:07   #20
OS119
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...but they're easy targets...
not anymore - imv - the publicity over the carriers (and the very public nature of the political posturing over the C&T/V/STOL argument), and the more complete they become, makes them harder and harder to cancel.

barring something dramatic i think they are safe. of course, 'safe' does not mean that both will sail the seven seas for the next 50 years with 36 F-35's apeice, but it does, imv, mean that both will be be completed and both will commision into the RN.
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09-07-2012, 13:20   #21
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Well, on the last day of 2011, there were 9,317 American Troops alone in the U.K., and that doesn't include Diego Garcia.
Ah, partly correct. Here in East Anglia I live surrounded by many of them, too, in fact, there are two off-duty guys sitting here in my living room drinking my coffee as I write this - they live across the street from me. Ty and Pat say hello, BTW

However, the question was how many mixed EU troops are there in UK right now. The answer still has to be none - the US of A is not part of the European Union.

There are what you might call EU troops here in UK in minute numbers - members of staff at our military colleges and in certain intelligence-related units but they could not be described as being part of any mixed EU unit, just serving in their own nationally-interested focus groups of around four or five personnel or acting as instructors as noted.

I assume that you actually know where Diego Garcia is located? I think that you'd agree that it is nowhere near Europe, and is NOT part of the UK either.

tac

Last edited by tac foley; 09-07-2012 at 13:26.
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09-07-2012, 13:38   #22
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However, the question was how many mixed EU troops are there in UK right now. The answer still has to be none - the US of A is not part of the European Union.
I didn't say there were or it was. I took issue with:

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The last time a large number of foreign troops came over to UK was in September of 1066.
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I assume that you actually know where Diego Garcia is located? I think that you'd agree that it is nowhere near Europe, and is NOT part of the UK either.
Of course, which is why I was sure not to include it.
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09-07-2012, 13:40   #23
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technically, there are EU troops in the UK - JPHQ at Northwood acts as one of three(?) European operational HQ's for the EU Battlegroup programme, so yes, there are a small number of non UK, EU 'badged' personnel in the UK on a permanent basis.

there is also continuous EUBG work being done in the UK, to which non-UK EU 'badged' personnel are seconded - the UK forms the bulk of one of its two allocated BG's with the Netherlands, and from vague recall the next UK lead BG will involve some of the Baltic States.

certainly the Dutch did a big exercise over here with 3CdoX that was a work up for the last BG...
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09-07-2012, 17:35   #24
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have a much better idea of it now thank
on the subject of eu troops in the uk maybe tac could answer this one for me .. have the royal marines or paras ever gone peacekeeping with the un ? and if they have did they wear blue berets and helmets covers ?
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09-07-2012, 17:41   #25
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There are NO mixed EU forces in the UK - anywhere.

The last time a large number of foreign troops came over to UK was in September of 1066.

tac
of course the usa kept all their troops for the invasion of europe....at home....

german army trucks on salisbury plain, italian troops stationed in gloucester........my imagination, i suppose.....2012...


the free french troops were stationed in paris ????

the free polish troops were stationed in warsaw..??????
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09-07-2012, 18:50   #26
OS119
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...have the royal marines or paras ever gone peacekeeping with the un ? and if they have did they wear blue berets and helmets covers ?
yup, the last Blue Helmet job the UK did was Bosnia, lots of RM and PARA over the whole of the Op - not in large units because Bosnia was an Armoured Infantry op, and PARA and RM are light role - but lots of bodies on specialist tasks and reinforcement Coys.

i think one of the PARA Bn's did the Rhodesia PK job, but i may be wrong...
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09-07-2012, 19:10   #27
tac foley
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of course the usa kept all their troops for the invasion of europe....at home....

Sarcasm is not required - the question was about EU troops. When the Americans were last here in very large numbers, WW2, there was no EU.

german army trucks on salisbury plain, italian troops stationed in gloucester........my imagination, i suppose.....2012...

Temporarily based in UK for exercise purpose? Mixed? Please show me how they were mixed with British troops?

the free french troops were stationed in paris ????

[I]WW2 again. Not EU.[/I]

the free polish troops were stationed in warsaw..??????
[I]WW2 again, and not EU.[/I]

There are NO mixed EU/UK troops here in UK.

There are NO EU troops permanently based here in UK.

If in doubt about the meaning of the word 'troops', please look it up.

tac

Last edited by tac foley; 09-07-2012 at 19:44.
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09-07-2012, 19:44   #28
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Essentially the brits have decided that the next war they are going to fight isn't going to be the full on first rate power vs first rate power with armour clashing on the battle field supported by fast air..... the threat is more likely to be from non state actors such as ethnic or nationalist separatists rather the the third shock army.

As such their armoured capacity has been mothballed in comparison to what it was. If your thinking of becoming a tankie, its a declining profession right now. Thats not to say it won't be expanded again in future, but it looks increasingly unlikely. Indeed, the UK cavalry are moving towards what the Irish cav do - and thats recce, moving ahead of the main force, parking up, dismounting and finding out where the enemy are so that they can be crushed with a combined arms attack. However, with the emergence of ever more high tech UAV's some think the day of armoured recce is over......

Rather UK land forces are moving to a three tier structure

The first we in laymans terms you could all the light or "elite" role. These guys will be the initial entry into a conflict zone and will probably be the ones crossing the border first. As such they will be considered "elite" infantry - harder training than a regular "line" soldier, and be expected to fight and survive against the odds with little support from the word go.

The likes of your Royal Marines, Parachute regiment will be up there, with a few raf regiment thrown into the mix. however some of the other infantry regiments will be assigned this role as well. One of the battalions from "The Rifles" are commando trained. Basically if storming the beachhead, parachuting or choppering into battle are your thing, then this is where to go.

The next crowd are your regular infantry - there's nothing wrong with these guys and they'll probably be busy, once the initial flurry is over, or the enemy are tooled up with armour, regular "line" infantry will be out in force. Line infantry comes a variety of formats - light infantry (which isn't, they carry most of their stuff), armoured (who operate from tracked armoured vehicles like the warrior, bradley or bmp) and mechanised (who typically use a wheeled less heavily armoured vehicle like the mowag in service with the Irish). Off the three, the light are the cheapest to run, getting more expensive with mechanized and then armoured with the level of firepower available increasing as well. Indeed, there's going to be scrap over which units get the mechanized slots, which infantryman wouldn't rather ride to battle in an armoured hide, or go there in canvas sided truck?

Finally you have the supporting arms - your artillery, army air corps, cavalry, medics, logistics. Whilst derided by some "front line" troops as remfs, pogues etc, without these guys the "teeth" arms can't function, for every rifleman blazing away at the enemy theres any number of people needed to put him in the field. Apparently the unit that has been shot at most in afghanistan for the brits have been the Royal Logistics Corps. If you were a lightly armed insurgent, would you rather take on a heavily armed mechanised infantry unit, or have a pop at the poor old logistics unit trundling past in their trucks full of flamable materials?

In the past, UK units in the infantry used to rotate between the different roles - now each unit is getting a fixed role so what someone looking for a career will have to decide is which type of unit has a role that will match their career aspirations. The thing is, even if you opt for an "elite" unit that is supposed to be an initial force, you might not end up in that scenario, your unit might be deployed on an exercise somewhere in the world when a crisis errupts and a regular unit goes instead, or because they need the clunking armoured personnel carriers that they have.

However - politics will dictate as to what operations soldiers go on and whether the british government thinks its national interests and political skins are worth shipping you and your buddies off to get shot at. That said, i think the brits have been under hostile fire somewhere in the world most years since 1945.....
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09-07-2012, 19:51   #29
tac foley
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Essentially the brits have decided that the next war they are going to fight isn't going to be the full on first rate power vs first rate power with armour clashing on the battle field supported by fast air..... etc.
Good post, apart from the 'brits'.

Nationalities are capitalised, or they feel insulted.

tac
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09-07-2012, 20:41   #30
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yup, the last Blue Helmet job the UK did was Bosnia, lots of RM and PARA over the whole of the Op - not in large units because Bosnia was an Armoured Infantry op, and PARA and RM are light role - but lots of bodies on specialist tasks and reinforcement Coys.

i think one of the PARA Bn's did the Rhodesia PK job, but i may be wrong...
The Paras were in Macadonia in 99 they were the spearhead unit first in, they took the high ground and the airport for the Irish guards battlegroup to then cross the border and head into Pristina.

Last edited by cruasder777; 09-07-2012 at 20:43.
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