[BornToKill]

Originally Posted by Marcusm

Unfortunately, none of that is applicable to sea fishing!

Not even the sea fishing part?

[krd]

Originally Posted by Dont be daft

I will concede that the balcony argument was misguided but the principle is the same. If no public or private right of way exists what makes you think we should all be able to break the law when it suits us?
Its not really trespassing? Ah, what? How is it anything but trespassing?

Because it is not trespassing at all. A public right of way, all members of the public have right of access. A private right of way, or to cross land, the public have a right of way as long as they don't or don't look like they have the intention of:

Substantially damaging the land

Substantially damaging any amenity on the land or prevent any person from making reasonable use of that amenity

Render the land or any amenity on it unsanitary or unsafe

Substantially interfere with the land or an amenity on it.

In other words. If someone crosses land to fish, as long as they're not interfering with anything on the farm land, they're not trespassing. If the landowner thinks they may be attempting to illegally occupy the land, they can call the guards. If they're poking around farm buildings, they are trespassing. They can ask them to leave, or even call the guards.

So your man coming out roarin' and shoutin' was in the wrong. Those people were doing no harm to his land, and were just fishing, they had every right to be there.

As for your views on subsidies, you just have not got a clue. No, really, you havent a clue.

The average Irish farm is 81 acres, and receives on average €54,000 a year in CAP payments. That's just the subsidy anything the farm makes is gravy.

Of course it's always hard to find out precisely what farmers make. Every time they're on the media, they make distorted claims for their incomes. And farming is so tough everyone is getting out of it. Really it's just old farmers selling up or transferring to family. The average acre only goes on the open market once every 400 years.

Farmers plead poverty, but they have a much higher standard of living than most people who live in urban areas.

In the argument you have put forward there are so many inaccuracies, lies and out of context facts that its just dribble at this stage.

You're the one calling crossing farm land trespassing when it isn't. Making comparisons to fishing from someone's balcony. You're the one muddying the waters.

You were better of heeding my advice and keeping your mouth shut.

Or what. You'll come out with your shot gun and run me off your land.

[nuac]

Fishing rights can be very complicated.

E.g Litigation c 1920s about fishery rights at Ballyshannon, and litigation about 15 years about rights at the Moy.

In more recent times the rights in rivers etc were owned by landlords. When the estate went thru the Land Purchase Acts procedure ( i.e. being vested in the tenants ) the rights were either retained by the landlord if not vested in the Land Commission. Land Commission ( now Dept of Ag ) leased them out to individuals or clubs.

the actual bed of the river usually went the same way as the fishing rights.

ANyone may fish in the sea below HWM

One may only cross land to fish if there is a right of way for that purpose.. Many anglers misunderstand or profess to misunderstand this,

[Marcusm]

Originally Posted by BornToKill

Not even the sea fishing part?

Oops, I went to the page it linked! Sorry Victor...

[Marcusm]

Originally Posted by krd

Because it is not trespassing at all. A public right of way, all members of the public have right of access. A private right of way, or to cross land, the public have a right of way as long as they don't or don't look like they have the intention of:

Substantially damaging the land

Substantially damaging any amenity on the land or prevent any person from making reasonable use of that amenity

Render the land or any amenity on it unsanitary or unsafe

Substantially interfere with the land or an amenity on it.

In other words. If someone crosses land to fish, as long as they're not interfering with anything on the farm land, they're not trespassing. If the landowner thinks they may be attempting to illegally occupy the land, they can call the guards. If they're poking around farm buildings, they are trespassing. They can ask them to leave, or even call the guards.

So your man coming out roarin' and shoutin' was in the wrong. Those people were doing no harm to his land, and were just fishing, they had every right to be there.

What you're citing is what a rambler/land user needs to avoid in order not to commit the offene of criminal trespass. Otherwise, if there is no right of way, it remains trespass although that is a civil matter and not likely to be one in respect of which the court offers any damages. It reains the case that privately owned land without rights of way means that the landowner can scream at you to get off his land and you should follow his instructions.

O Cuiv set up a working group to look at this for ramblers, hill walkers etc but couldn't get beyond the type of guidelines you have cited. They fully acknowledged the land owners rights to keep his land private if he so wishes.

[danbrosnan]

Originally Posted by nuac

Fishing rights can be very complicated.

E.g Litigation c 1920s about fishery rights at Ballyshannon, and litigation about 15 years about rights at the Moy.

In more recent times the rights in rivers etc were owned by landlords. When the estate went thru the Land Purchase Acts procedure ( i.e. being vested in the tenants ) the rights were either retained by the landlord if not vested in the Land Commission. Land Commission ( now Dept of Ag ) leased them out to individuals or clubs.

the actual bed of the river usually went the same way as the fishing rights.

ANyone may fish in the sea below HWM

One may only cross land to fish if there is a right of way for that purpose.. Many anglers misunderstand or profess to misunderstand this,

This is the kind of response i wanted, educated and informed...

From reading everyones opinions what i gather is this:-

It is really down to the land owner if he wants to cause agro or not... Most land owners will not bother the fishermen but there is always a bollix...

[Dont be daft]

Originally Posted by krd

Because it is not trespassing at all. A public right of way, all members of the public have right of access. A private right of way, or to cross land, the public have a right of way as long as they don't or don't look like they have the intention of:

Substantially damaging the land

Substantially damaging any amenity on the land or prevent any person from making reasonable use of that amenity

Render the land or any amenity on it unsanitary or unsafe

Substantially interfere with the land or an amenity on it.

In other words. If someone crosses land to fish, as long as they're not interfering with anything on the farm land, they're not trespassing. If the landowner thinks they may be attempting to illegally occupy the land, they can call the guards. If they're poking around farm buildings, they are trespassing. They can ask them to leave, or even call the guards.

So your man coming out roarin' and shoutin' was in the wrong. Those people were doing no harm to his land, and were just fishing, they had every right to be there.



The average Irish farm is 81 acres, and receives on average €54,000 a year in CAP payments. That's just the subsidy anything the farm makes is gravy.

Of course it's always hard to find out precisely what farmers make. Every time they're on the media, they make distorted claims for their incomes. And farming is so tough everyone is getting out of it. Really it's just old farmers selling up or transferring to family. The average acre only goes on the open market once every 400 years.

Farmers plead poverty, but they have a much higher standard of living than most people who live in urban areas.



You're the one calling crossing farm land trespassing when it isn't. Making comparisons to fishing from someone's balcony. You're the one muddying the waters.



Or what. You'll come out with your shot gun and run me off your land.

If there is no Public right of way, which as I have previously highlighted are very rare, then there is no right to enter the property.

Your confusing the intention or act of causing damage with Criminal trespass.
If one enters a property be the recreational user or not and there is no public right of way then they do not have the right to do.
Why do you think you think the ironically named Walker case was brought? Walker sought a court declaration that no public ROW existed.
If the public had a right to cross his property regardless why would he have gone court?

As regards the 54k average CAP payout to Irish farmers I'd love to see the article you dug that up from.
Regardless of CAP the fact remains that the average farm income was 18k last year. In 2009 it was just under 12k which I believe is somewere around what the Job Seekers Allowance would add up to.
Its quite easy to see what farmers make, they're taxed the same way as any other sole-trader.

Your probably gonna spout some crap about farmers been a load of ineffecient fools if they cant make more than 18k a year but the fact is that Irish farmers are regarded as among the best in the world.

Irish farmers produce enough food not only to feed Ireland but probably another 30 million people as well. Then there's the whole Agrifoods industry which is based around it.

I wasnt implying violence when I said you were better off keeping your mouth shut. What I meant was your ill-informed and ignorant of the topic and it would be in your best interest from a credibilty aspect that you kept your opinions to yourself

[danbrosnan]

Originally Posted by Dont be daft

If there is no Public right of way, which as I have previously highlighted are very rare, then there is no right to enter the property.

Your confusing the intention or act of causing damage with Criminal trespass.
If one enters a property be the recreational user or not and there is no public right of way then they do not have the right to do.
Why do you think you think the ironically named Walker case was brought? Walker sought a court declaration that no public ROW existed.
If the public had a right to cross his property regardless why would he have gone court?

As regards the 54k average CAP payout to Irish farmers I'd love to see the article you dug that up from.
Regardless of CAP the fact remains that the average farm income was 18k last year. In 2009 it was just under 12k which I believe is somewere around what the Job Seekers Allowance would add up to.
Its quite easy to see what farmers make, they're taxed the same way as any other sole-trader.

Your probably gonna spout some crap about farmers been a load of ineffecient fools if they cant make more than 18k a year but the fact is that Irish farmers are regarded as among the best in the world.

Irish farmers produce enough food not only to feed Ireland but probably another 30 million people as well. Then there's the whole Agrifoods industry which is based around it.

I wasnt implying violence when I said you were better off keeping your mouth shut. What I meant was your ill-informed and ignorant of the topic and it would be in your best interest from a credibilty aspect that you kept your opinions to yourself

Listen to me ignorance is a terrible thing, if someone has an opinion then that is valid, this is not a website where anybody is right because its all fictional... people right stuff up and nobody knows anybody... if i have or anybody has an opinion that farmers earn more then there fair share then you have to accept that, rather then trying to shout louder on text "which makes you look stupid", you have gone completely off on one, and this is my opinion accept it or leave it....

[Dont be daft]

Originally Posted by danbrosnan

This is the kind of response i wanted, educated and informed...

From reading everyones opinions what i gather is this:-

It is really down to the land owner if he wants to cause agro or not... Most land owners will not bother the fishermen but there is always a bollix...

Yeah, apologies for going off topic there.
With regards to agro or not, its probably advisable to ask for permission 1st.
It shows the calibre of person you are and would put me at ease that you were a responsible angler.
i.e. Your not going damage fencing, leave gates open or litter. It would also give the landowner the opportunity to warn of dangers.

I appreciate this isn't always possible and to be fair your man on Valencia sounds like a bollix alright, but it can lead to a more amicable ending.

[danbrosnan]

Originally Posted by Dont be daft

Yeah, apologies for going off topic there.
With regards to agro or not, its probably advisable to ask for permission 1st.
It shows the calibre of person you are and would put me at ease that you were a responsible angler.
i.e. Your not going damage fencing, leave gates open or litter. It would also give the landowner the opportunity to warn of dangers.

I appreciate this isn't always possible and to be fair your man on Valencia sounds like a bollix alright, but it can lead to a more amicable ending.

you know what your dead right... simplicity is key!!!

I will go and ask him... thanks..

[harry21]

Originally Posted by nuac

Fishing rights can be very complicated.

E.g Litigation c 1920s about fishery rights at Ballyshannon, and litigation about 15 years about rights at the Moy.

In more recent times the rights in rivers etc were owned by landlords. When the estate went thru the Land Purchase Acts procedure ( i.e. being vested in the tenants ) the rights were either retained by the landlord if not vested in the Land Commission. Land Commission ( now Dept of Ag ) leased them out to individuals or clubs.

the actual bed of the river usually went the same way as the fishing rights.

ANyone may fish in the sea below HWM

One may only cross land to fish if there is a right of way for that purpose.. Many anglers misunderstand or profess to misunderstand this,

This post is nearly all correct. Under the Land Act, most of the fishing rights were retained by the Landlord when the land was vested in the tenant. In some cases the tenants also gained the rights. It really was down to the Landlord. Fishing rights were highly profitabl and desireable when the Land Act was intially introduced, and were bundled together with the sporting/hunting rights of the land.

However, the ownership of the bed is nearly always owned by the adjacent property owner, who may or may not have the rights to fish the river.

[Dont be daft]

Originally Posted by harry21

This post is nearly all correct. Under the Land Act, most of the fishing rights were retained by the Landlord when the land was vested in the tenant. In some cases the tenants also gained the rights. It really was down to the Landlord. Fishing rights were highly profitabl and desireable when the Land Act was intially introduced, and were bundled together with the sporting/hunting rights of the land.

However, the ownership of the bed is nearly always owned by the adjacent property owner, who may or may not have the rights to fish the river.

And I'm nearly 100% sure Inland Fisheries Ireland were handed over the Land Commisions "Fishing Rights" porfolio when it was disolved in the 80's. IFI in turn leases them out to the clubs.

I think I remember seeing fishing rights being held over a Land Commission purchase and there wasnt even a river flowing anywere near it and was told at the time this was standard for the LC, that they claimed ownership of "Fishing Rights" on every property they acquired.

[harry21]

I think they did claim what they could, but in many cases the Landlords would not sell the rights, which they views as seperate to the sale of land. The result was they didn't end up with much that was worth anything.

Thats my experience anyway. IFI don't acutally lease that much fishing in Ireland. It is most privately held, again from my own experience.

[Victor]

Originally Posted by nuac

ANyone may fish in the sea below HWM

Unless they are a non-EU fishing trawler. Even non-Irish, EU trawlers will have issues.

[nuac]

Noted Victor I was thinking of anglers.