[jm08]

Originally Posted by backawaygo onahead

All top class NH players, not all remotely world class however I'm not going to argue the toss on individuals for that way lies conflict & I do try hard to be nice, the tea-leaves told me that would be best.

Suffice to say that world class labels means very different things to different people & I don't share your, in my view, rather undemanding definition.

I'd go along with what you say. Players need to be a bit special like Woody, BOD & POC - the only 3 in the professional era that I'd put into that category.

England had a load for their world cup win - D'Allalio, Johnson, Wilko, Hill & Robinson for starters. They just peaked for the '03 world cup.

Of the present contingent I'd say that Healy is probably the only one who would fit into that category (and he isn't there just yet).

Edit: A fit Ferris would make it as well, but he is never fit for long enough and proably mostly plays carrying an injury.

[Fishooks12]

Originally Posted by jm08

I'd go along with what you say. Players need to be a bit special like Woody, BOD & POC - the only 3 in the professional era that I'd put into that category.

England had a load for their world cup win - D'Allalio, Johnson, Wilko, Hill & Robinson for starters. They just peaked for the '03 world cup.

Of the present contingent I'd say that Healy is probably the only one who would fit into that category (and he isn't there just yet).

Edit: A fit Ferris would make it as well, but he is never fit for long enough and proably mostly plays carrying an injury.

What exactly are you trying to say here? We don't have the players? We do

[jm08]

Originally Posted by Fishooks12

What exactly are you trying to say here? We don't have the players? We do

What I'm saying is that all teams need two or three really special players - for example Carter & McCaw for NZ, Contepomi & Hernandez for Argentina, Parisse for Italy, Shane Williams for Wales, Pelous, Dusatoir, & Harinordoquy for France and so on ....

[Fishooks12]

Originally Posted by jm08

What I'm saying is that all teams need two or three really special players - for example Carter & McCaw for NZ, Contepomi & Hernandez for Argentina, Parisse for Italy, Shane Williams for Wales, Pelous, Dusatoir, & Harinordoquy for France and so on ....

who do Wales, England and France have that we can't match or in many cases better!?

And what good is having one special player when the rest of your squad is average, having Parrise hasn't turned Italy into world beaters

I don't know if you can quantify "special" players while they are still in the game but we certainly have a handful of really top class players

[GerM]

I can get on board with the not having the players argument to an extent until you take them and put them against their Welsh counterparts as individuals. Packs win games. Is Jenkins better than Healy? Not any longer, injuries and miles on the clock significantly catching up with him. He hasn't performed near the level he once did over the last 10 months. Is Rees better than Best? I wouldn't say so. Adam Jones is better than Ross, no qualms. Are Davies/AWJ better than Ryan/POC? I'd say even but that wouldn't be the case if the Irish duo were more established as a partnership. The back rows? Possibly shaded by Wales but that's open to argument. Heaslip has certainly outperformed Faletau in the last few months and SOB went toe to toe with the best in the world and matched him.

It's very easily taken that the packs are even between the two nations yet there's a massive disparity between their results.

[Fishooks12]

Originally Posted by GerM

I can get on board with the not having the players argument to an extent until you take them and put them against their Welsh counterparts as individuals. Packs win games. Is Jenkins better than Healy? Not any longer, injuries and miles on the clock significantly catching up with him. He hasn't performed near the level he once did over the last 10 months. Is Rees better than Best? I wouldn't say so. Adam Jones is better than Ross, no qualms. Are Davies/AWJ better than Ryan/POC? I'd say even but that wouldn't be the case if the Irish duo were more established as a partnership. The back rows? Possibly shaded by Wales but that's open to argument. Heaslip has certainly outperformed Faletau in the last few months and SOB went toe to toe with the best in the world and matched him.

It's very easily taken that the packs are even between the two nations yet there's a massive disparity between their results.

+1

I'd say Best is a good bit better than Rees on current form though

[jm08]

Originally Posted by Fishooks12

who do Wales, England and France have that we can't match or in many cases better!?

And what good is having one special player when the rest of your squad is average, having Parrise hasn't turned Italy into world beaters

I don't know if you can quantify "special" players while they are still in the game but we certainly have a handful of really top class players

Not a huge difference with Wales at the moment. In general they have got the bounce of the ball in all but the world cup game. In fact they are very similar to us in that they can have a big performance as we had against Australia. Their big performance was against us.

A fit Mike Ross and it might have been different in the 6ns. It will be still nick and tuc with them.

We drew with France in the last 6Ns.

I've four categories of players:
1. Special players. 2. Good internationals. 3. Good club players who get to play international. 4. Shouldn't be playing international.

Italy has an awful lot of 3-4 standard. We've got more 2-3 standard players.

[Leinsterr]

My Ireland XV when dk is sacked (probably in 2014)

1. Healy
2. Best
3. Ross
4. Ryan
5. Tuohy/Toner/McLaughlin (POC is retired)
6. Ferris
7. Dominic Ryan
8. O'Brien
9. Reddan
10. Sexton
11. Fitzgerald
12. McFadden
13. BOD/ Cave
14. Bowe
15. Kearney

If we have schmidt or o'shea as head coach or backs coach, we can have one of the most potent attacking backlines in the world.

[Podge_irl]

For Kidney to be sacked in 2014 it would require his contract being renewed, and I would hope that there is precisely zero chance of that happening.

I doubt any backline could be the most potent in the world with McFadden at 12 (must and all as I am a fan of his).

[Cpt_Blackbeard]

Originally Posted by Podge_irl

For Kidney to be sacked in 2014 it would require his contract being renewed, and I would hope that there is precisely zero chance of that happening.

I doubt any backline could be the most potent in the world with McFadden at 12 (must and all as I am a fan of his).

I'd be more worried about a 35 year old BOD and a 34 year old Reddan in that backline to be fair. BOD has already looked over-the-hill in our most recent tour. Reddan is currently a decent player, but if we don't have better options in two years, we'll be in serious trouble.

It would be a (very) good HEC backline, but nothing more than that. Each of Leinster/Ulster/Munster could currently field a backline of a similar (maybe better) attacking potency.

[Podge_irl]

Aye, there are more problems with it I just didn't go into. I'd give BOD another shot - no one looked good on the tour just gone and I was impressed by him in the knockouts of the HEC. But I imagine a last Lions tour will see his retirement. I'd be fairly disappointed if Reddan was still our best option at 9 in two years too - but that is very dependent on Murray getting good coaching at Munster and Marmion and McGrath getting every opportunity for gametime.

The national coach is certainly at the whim of provincial coaches in that respect. Still, things change massively over even such a short timeframe as two years - I imagine any new coach will have an uncomfortable settling in period where it'll be best to just cut a lot of players loose.

[rrpc]

Originally Posted by backawaygo onahead

Equally I'm bemused by your bemusement, what I said was "a great team needs a few genuine class acts", to me a few is three or so not 15.

Hope this lessens your bemusement.

Not really seeing as you said in your post that you 'couldn't agree more' with a post that said this:

Originally Posted by boksmashoffice

Lads hand on heart do you have world beaters who can play in every position?

Which is it?

[backawaygo onahead]

Originally Posted by Tox56

Half our team consists of 'top class NH players' yet we win only 2 games in the Six Nations?

Tox, if you paid attention to the tenor of my posts I keep pointing out that we have plenty of good , very good & some excellent/great players BUT we have some positions where we are incredibly limited, 3 & 9 probably the most crucial but by no means the only positions where we struggle.

In HC our teams have our best players concentrated into 3 teams whereas the main opposition have their players spread over a much greater number of teams, many top English & French players may not even be in teams who qualify.

Wales are the team who buck the trend, they have moderate HC teams but can put out a national team with no glaring weaknesses in key positions - that is the real difference in our international fortunes, plus of course they have a track record of winning GSs & championships so when they are in position to do it again, they don't appear to suffer the same "fear" that Ireland always struggle with when success beckons.

Of course none of this gives me any pleasure, I'd love to believe we have riches aplenty & its only a buffoon of a coach holding us back. The truth is very different.

[backawaygo onahead]

Originally Posted by rrpc

Not really seeing as you said in your post that you 'couldn't agree more' with a post that said this:



Which is it?

RRPC - sorry the multiquote button doesn't work for me for some reason but I am struggling to see what you are trying to say. I see no conflict at all between the 2 things you quote - care to elucidate?

[backawaygo onahead]

Originally Posted by Leinsterr

My Ireland XV when dk is sacked (probably in 2014)

1. Healy
2. Best
3. Ross
4. Ryan
5. Tuohy/Toner/McLaughlin (POC is retired)
6. Ferris
7. Dominic Ryan
8. O'Brien
9. Reddan
10. Sexton
11. Fitzgerald
12. McFadden
13. BOD/ Cave
14. Bowe
15. Kearney

If we have schmidt or o'shea as head coach or backs coach, we can have one of the most potent attacking backlines in the world.

Your backline would worry me greatly, Old man Reddan in 2014? The venerable BOD? Cave, a yard at least short of international pace I'm afraid & I'm a huge fan of his ability. McFadden I could be wrong but currently no better than a decent HC player in a great team, wonder would be shine at Connacht, Wasps, Glasgie or the likes?

Finally I hope that by 2014 Sexton is finally the maestro at international level that he clearly is now at club level.