[macplaxton]

Originally Posted by ngk74

.1% of €50 being 5cent/day is 18.25 /year. At exactly 36 years it comes to the 657 they mention. Maybe the event occurred a couple of years before the article was written and maybe the 657 is the back tax and doesnt include the 50 reg fee.

I sort of see now, but back tax based on €50 Cat C VRT is obviously the amount that was charged before 1st May 2011, and the Revenue sub-contracted the paperwork/inspections to NCTS on 1st Sept 2010.

I'm not saying the man didn't get humped for the cash, but there are a number of inconsistencies with the numbers. 36% is the VRT percentage applied to vehicles under 30 years old with no emissions data for instance, so has bugger all to do with that case.

You have PM by the way

[ngk74]

Originally Posted by macplaxton

I sort of see now, but back tax based on €50 Cat C VRT is obv iously the amount that was charged before 1st May 2011, and the Revenue sub-contracted the paperwork/inspections to NCTS on 1st Sept 2010.

Yes, the article is from 21.may.2011. The €50 reg charge was in place until 30 April 2011.

I'm not saying the man didn't get humped for the cash, but there are a number of inconsistencies with the numbers. 36% is the VRT percentage applied to vehicles under 30 years old with no emissions data for instance, so has bugger all to do with that case.

36.5% or 0.1% per day is the rate charged for late registration regardless of vehicle class, emissions or otherwise(they stated just 36% in the article but this is prob what they mean) . As a penalty It equates to the highest rate of VRT available.

Sec 62 Finance Act no. 2 2008


Interesting to read is also the following in relation to imposing a charge:

"1.4.8.7 Implementation of the above provisions

These provisions now allow Revenue to raise an additional charge for VRT in line with other tax heads. In normal circumstances the additional charge is calculated at the time of registration by Revenue Systems. However, there may be a situation where an official may wish to raise the charge after the registration event takes place.
In such circumstances the provisions should be applied in a sensible manner and additional charges should be raised only when the official is satisfied that an additional charge is due and payable."

Source: Revenue Operational manual VRT Section 1: Procedures and Processes in Revenue

So I am not so clear if this 'sensible manner' applies to applying a charge in any case or a charge after a reg fee has been taken. I would read it as the former!

[ngk74]

Also of interest:

1.4.8.3 Procedures for calculating outstanding VRT

Calculations of outstanding VRT due on late Registration
The NCTS captures the date the vehicle came into the State and Revenue systems calculate if the vehicle has remained unregistered in the State longer than the prescribed time (i.e. appointment with NCTS not booked within 7 days of the vehicle entering the State and vehicle registration not completed within 30 days of the vehicle entering the State), and if the vehicle has not been held by an authorised TAN holder the system will automatically calculate an outstanding VRT charge.
In this regard, when the outstanding charge is raised, the NCTS will request payment of both the VRT calculated and the outstanding charge of VRT due to late registration, as calculated by Revenue, at the time of registration.

Where a vehicle which is subject to additional VRT, is to be registered by an authorised Revenue officer at a Revenue office, the Revenue officer should examine:

 the data collected and entered for the vehicle,

 existing Revenue information including any VRT 32 forms issued by the Enforcement Units in relation to the vehicle, and

 other relevant information to hand, before determining that an outstanding charge is appropriate

[macplaxton]

Originally Posted by ngk74

36.5% or 0.1% per day is the rate charged for late registration regardless of vehicle class, emissions or otherwise(they stated just 36% in the article but this is prob what they mean) . As a penalty It equates to the highest rate of VRT available.

No, the maths presented is still a bit flaky. A penalty charge is based on the VRT due, not the highest rate available. In the €50 case.

€50 x 0.1% per day = €0.05 per day
€0.05 per day x 365 days in a year (wonder if they count 366 for leap years ) = €18.25 per year.
€18.25 per year x 40 years = €730
€50 VRT + €730 = €780

An additional charge of €657 is either 36 years 6 months @ €18, or 36 years @ €18.25. But then they mention in the paragraph before "a total of over 40 years" Seems they can't make their mind up in the report whether it was cleared in 2006 or 2010/11. 36% per year isn't quite 0.1% per day, as you correctly state, it's 36.5% (or technically 36.6% for a leap year)

Going back to my original worst case calculation:
€200 x 0.1% per day = €0.20 per day
€0.20 per day x 365 days in a year = €73 per year.
€73 per year x 48 years 170 days = €3538 (01/01/64 to 18/6/12)
€200 VRT + €3538 = €3738 due. (add €2.40 if including leap years )

and the best case is €200.

I think it would track down the yellow lorry man and ask them what they did in his case?

I would argue that at worst, you should only be responsible for paying back tax from the point it became a mechanically propelled vehicle. e.g. the date at which the engine goes back in, as it was found without the engine in it (which was sitting next to it) and which was sometime after the previous owner passed away.

[hi5]

Ireland is slowly but surely been brought up to date with the rest of europe.
As your tractor has no identity and never had then you may have to go through the IVA conformity proceedure, to have it verified and catagorised as an actual tractor.
I know that passanger jeeps being converted to commercial vehicles if not factory built are having to do this now.

http://www.rsa.ie/en/RSA/Your-Vehicl...cle/Tractors-/

http://www.nsai.ie/Our-Services/Cert...-Approval.aspx

[ngk74]

Originally Posted by macplaxton

A penalty charge is based on the VRT due, not the highest rate available. In the €50 case.

No, no If you look at the Finance Act no. 2 2008 Section 62, it states quite clearly that an additional charge is levied at 0.1% using the formula

AxPxN

A - amount of VRT (Here: Cat C or T1 to T5= €50 - before 01.05.2011)
P 0.1%
N no of days

I should not have said that the 'penalty' interest rate of 0.1% equates to the highest rate of VRT. Whilst this seems optically to be the case, it does not actually state that in the legislation.


Probably the reporter in the FJ did not go into the detail that we are - or he just wrote it down as the farmer told him. We also do not know exactly when it happened even though they mention 'over 40 years', which does not correlate to the math.

But I think it is very credible that this happened.

I think it would track down the yellow lorry man and ask them what they did in his case?

Yes, it would be interesting, whereby we do not know if it was imported it at some stage and he has the documentation or it was unregistered in the State since near its manufacture date.

I have no documentation.

I think it is possible that Revenue could believe that a tractor was in the country since near the date of manufacture as it was commonplace for them to be used solely on the farm.

I think one would have a harder time convincing them of this in relation to the truck (unless one could prove that it was used solely in a warehouse around the docks or something like that) or indeed a car e.g where the latter is a shell rebuilt into a car and presented for registration without documentation as in the case of the tractor. I suppose this is where the search for a matching log book comes n.

I would argue that at worst, you should only be responsible for paying back tax from the point it became a mechanically propelled vehicle. e.g. the date at which the engine goes back in, as it was found without the engine in it (which was sitting next to it) and which was sometime after the previous owner passed away.

I think you are confusing me with someone else. The vehicle was capable of self propulsion at all times - the engine was not in a removed state.

[ngk74]

Originally Posted by hi5

Ireland is slowly but surely been brought up to date with the rest of europe.
As your tractor has no identity and never had then you may have to go through the IVA conformity proceedure, to have it verified and catagorised as an actual tractor.
I know that passanger jeeps being converted to commercial vehicles if not factory built are having to do this now.

http://www.rsa.ie/en/RSA/Your-Vehicl...cle/Tractors-/

http://www.nsai.ie/Our-Services/Cert...-Approval.aspx

Yes, yes - this is also a problem!

When is a tractor a tractor?

Although your link does not show it, the EU categories T1- T5 even specify the tyre width in determining which category the tractor falls under ...!

I think this is also a problem with rebuilt vehicles. if you go to the NCT to present the vehicle for registration and you state it is rebuilt, they will put you through the NSAI route (which undoubtedly costs money with no guarantee of passing).

If you say it is not rebuilt, then they ask you why was the car unregistered.

At this stage you have probably invested a lot of time restoring the car, it is capable of mechanical propulsion and is in good to excellent condition, sitting in front of the NCT inspector.

Remember you prob have no paperwork for the rebuilt vehicle having gathered up a shell and bits and pieces from everywhere. even if the shell was at one time registered that paperwork is prob missing. On older cars they only had the chassis no on a rivited plate and that might be gone too.

Try and argue that it was in a barn for 30 years ....

Note that the software the nct use automatically calculates the penalty based on the date they enter into it when you are there. That was the prob with the guy with the fergy in the FJ. he signed the declaration there. Toough luck acc to revenue.

Undoubtedly, this is where the search for a matching log book comes in - thus the registration (and nsai verification) process is completely avoided/evaded.

If the car is pre 81 , it will not do an nct test so no one will check the chassis no on the log book against that on the car ( if it is on it).

The chances of a Garda actually doing this or having recourse to do this approach zero rapidly too ...

see what I mean?

[galwaytt]

Dunno if this would work, but howabout take it to N.I., register it up there.

Then, 'import' it here from it's N.I. papers.

No ?

[mattroche]

We can speculate all we like, but the best road to go down is th contact the Revenue at Rosslaire, which is where V.R.T. is calculated for vahicles that are not on their web site. The tractor could be trailered to a N.C.T. if is neccessary, if you can agree a figure with the revenue, but I think it will be E200. Perhaps there may be a fee to register it . I will try and find out from the Dept. of Transport here in Shannon, and come back to you.

[mattroche]

Since my last post, I have found out a bit more. All vahicles at that time had a Chassis/ Model No. somewhere on them, it is a case of finding it. As I do not know the make of the tractor, I cant not make any further suggestions, but if you would like to call me on 0868677601 and we can discuss it further.

[ngk74]

Originally Posted by galwaytt

Dunno if this would work, but howabout take it to N.I., register it up there.

Then, 'import' it here from it's N.I. papers.

No ?

Heard of this before. Would have to look into the details of it.

Since my last post, I have found out a bit more. All vahicles at that time had a Chassis/ Model No. somewhere on them, it is a case of finding it.

thanks for your help. I already know the chassis no and the year (down to the day it was manufactured!)

I do not understand what you are getting at with this with regards to reg fee and possibe back charge.

We know worst case is that they cahrge back to 1964 - €3700

The legislation allows for them to do it.

If they do or don't seems to be case by case - the FJ guy had to pay.

The chap on here with the David Brown did not even have to go to the NCT and only paid the €200 (or 50 at the time)