[Khannie]

Some of you will have seen from the other thread (Call to Prayer Question) that I'm in a predominantly Muslim country at the moment. It is different to Ireland in a lot of ways. I see some of these differences as positive, some of them negative. I'm particularly interested in the views of Muslims who live in Ireland and who have travelled to the middle east or other predominantly Muslim countries.

What do you think are the positives and negatives that Western nations have versus the Middle East for example?

I'll start. I've been to quite a few Muslim countries now; Indonesia and several Middle Eastern nations (4 by my quick count). Total time spent in Muslim countries over my lifetime is around 4-5 months.

Positives:
Overall when you look at peoples behaviour I consider the lack of alcohol a positive. I don't go into Dublin city centre any more at the weekend. To be honest it disgusts me. I do like a few drinks on a Friday evening but I can definitely appreciate the perception in Islam that the negatives outweigh the positives where alcohol is concerned. Having seen both sides of things I believe that overall alcohol causes more problems than it's worth in a society (this is coming from someone who likes to brew ).

Cleanliness is part of religion. In a hot country this is particularly important IMO. I'm not saying that people are dirty in the west before anyone tries to jump on that.

Lack of gambling: Definitely no harm here again. I like a bit of a gamble myself from time to time, but overall I think Muslim countries are better for it versus Western nations that allow it.

Negatives:
Personal freedom is obviously curtailed quite a bit. There are a few examples of this. Ladies being entirely covered doesn't sit well with my Western sensibilities, though I accept that my Western sensibilities aren't worth tuppence and I understand the reasoning behind it, I still consider this mostly a negative.

Some countries curtail internet access quite a bit (UAE doesn't allow Skype for example which I'm using extensively to call my wife and kids) and personal privacy which is held high in many Western nations means very little here - this last part isn't necessarily anything to do with Islam but it is a common theme I see in Muslim countries versus the West.

Less social interaction especially between men and women. Not sure if this perception is flawed or not. I acknowledge that it may just be lack of experience / lack of local knowledge but on the surface that seems to be the case.

I may come back with more. Friday prayer has started so I'm going to take the opportunity to go shopping before the malls get crazy.

[Jaafa]

I'll address your negative points seeing as we'd only agree on the positives, but first I'd like to commend you for understanding that our views on alcohol, gambling and the such isn't that they have zero benefits as most will think, it's that the negatives are far outweighed by the benefits.

Anyway, on Personal freedom. Your main issue here seems to be the wearing of the hijab/burka. Is it both you have a problem with? Personally I think the burka is excessive, but I'm fine with the hijab. What are your problems with it if so?

Internet access- As you already said this has nothing to do with Islam, you'll find restrictions to internet in China, north korea, several african countries, it's totally to do with the government in power. Sure sometimes the excuse will be one of a religious nature, but that's all it is, an excuse.

Less social interaction especially between men and women- While this is undoubtedly true, it may not be to the extent you think. Outside of the family yes interactions between men and women is restricted, but rarely completely cut off. Even with this men and women will still interact greatly in their wider family, with cousins etc, and as you may know, in the majority of Muslim countries, families are very very big.

Also to note that the extent of your criticisms vary greatly on the country we're talking about and even depend on the region of individual countries. There is a big big difference between Lebanon and Saudi Arabia, and a big difference between living in the country in Lebanon and in Beirut.

As such I think it's important to be specific with criticisms as much as possible.

[Khannie]

Nice post. Thanks. I'm still learning of course, but I enjoy the learning. That's part of the reason for the thread; To get other perspectives.

On the internet: Your point is true of course. However the control is generally to try and impart a specific way of thinking / prevent other views from infiltrating your own belief system. In general I believe that Muslim countries impose filtering to try and uphold the views of Islam (no porn, no gambling, etc.).

Originally Posted by Jaafa

Anyway, on Personal freedom. Your main issue here seems to be the wearing of the hijab/burka. Is it both you have a problem with? Personally I think the burka is excessive, but I'm fine with the hijab. What are your problems with it if so?

You and I would be lined up in our thinking there. Burka seems excessive / extreme to me. Hijab I'd consider merely an extension of conservative clothing.

Originally Posted by Jaafa

Also to note that the extent of your criticisms vary greatly on the country we're talking about and even depend on the region of individual countries. There is a big big difference between Lebanon and Saudi Arabia, and a big difference between living in the country in Lebanon and in Beirut.

Ah they're not criticisms. Merely perceived differences that I don't necessarily think are brilliant. I generally avoid criticising other cultures because perspective is different so what I think of another culture is more or less entirely irrelevant (if that makes sense). I can say "I see this in another culture and I don't agree with it" but I wouldn't generally say "I see this in another culture and it is wrong". There are exceptions to this (recent treatment of medical staff after protests in Bahrain for example - I believe this to be fundamentally wrong) but I try hard to avoid applying my cultural system on others. I think it's pretty much ridiculous to do so.

But you're right of course, Saudi is very different from Iran for example (the latter being less restrictive by a stretch) and both are very different to the North African countries. All have some similarities though. The same is true in the West....Ireland is very different from France, but we share some similarities.

[Jaafa]

On the internet: Your point is true of course. However the control is generally to try and impart a specific way of thinking / prevent other views from infiltrating your own belief system. In general I believe that Muslim countries impose filtering to try and uphold the views of Islam (no porn, no gambling, etc.).

Yeah I've heard there are such restrictions in some Muslim coutries, I don't know how widespread it is though.

You and I would be lined up in our thinking there. Burka seems excessive / extreme to me. Hijab I'd consider merely an extension of conservative clothing.

Yep, and yet I'd still rather countries not ban the burka, due to the fact only a minuscule number of people actually wear it in the western world and while I'm sure some of them have been socially obligated to do so, I'm just as sure there are many others who do so of their own free will.

Ah they're not criticisms. Merely perceived differences that I don't necessarily think are brilliant. I generally avoid criticising other cultures because perspective is different so what I think of another culture is more or less entirely irrelevant (if that makes sense). I can say "I see this in another culture and I don't agree with it" but I wouldn't generally say "I see this in another culture and it is wrong". There are exceptions to this (recent treatment of medical staff after protests in Bahrain for example - I believe this to be fundamentally wrong) but I try hard to avoid applying my cultural system on others. I think it's pretty much ridiculous to do so.

Well label it want you want, IMO it still comes down to being a criticism, and don't get me wrong that's perfectly fine, as long as you back up what your saying to the best of your knowledge which in fairness you are doing. I take no offense by it.

On Bahrain that was entirely a political matter (ie two monarchies attempting to punish those aiding protests), so again I wouldn't see that as a cultural thing and your well within your rights to say it was morally wrong in your opinion.

[HamletOrHecuba]

Islamic countries vary a lot dont they?

The more I learn about Iran the more I grow in love and respect for it.

Saudi Arabia? No thanks.

[Jaafa]

Originally Posted by HamletOrHecuba

Islamic countries vary a lot dont they?

The more I learn about Iran the more I grow in love and respect for it.

Saudi Arabia? No thanks.

Might I ask where you've learnt about Iran from? And to elaborate on your experience? I'm quite interested in the country too but don't know too much about it.

[HamletOrHecuba]

Originally Posted by Jaafa

Might I ask where you've learnt about Iran from? And to elaborate on your experience? I'm quite interested in the country too but don't know too much about it.

I have been there briefly for one week so I cant claim much experience of the country on the ground.

However reading people like Suhrawardi, Rumi and Ibn Sīnā has opened up a whole new world to me. Seyyed Hossein Nasr the contemporary Iranian philosopher is well worth checking out. They seem to have a width and depth of intellectual vision in their best that few can match.

[hivizman]

Originally Posted by HamletOrHecuba

However reading people like Suhrawardi, Rumi and Ibn Sīnā has opened up a whole new world to me. Seyyed Hossein Nasr the contemporary Iranian philosopher is well worth checking out. They seem to have a width and depth of intellectual vision in their best that few can match.

I've moved the interesting discussion on philosophy to the "Importance of Avicenna" thread, where I think it's more at home.