[diarmo06]

Greetings all.
Looking for a bit of advise.
Thinking about doing this physics/med physics in NUIG next year. Torn between that & repeatiing.
I'm not quite sure about it though? Does real options exsist to go into engineering after this degree at masters level? If not, what options do I have to deviate from the med' physics road if I wasn't in love with it? Is it possibly a bit of a FAD degree, maybe?

Would really appreciate a response.
x

[krd]

What do you mean by engineering?

If it's men in high viz jackets, driving 4X4s physics is not a good bet.

[diarmo06]

Originally Posted by krd

What do you mean by engineering?

If it's men in high viz jackets, driving 4X4s physics is not a good bet.

Hear mumours of people being able to do a master of engineering of a physics undergrad. Am I ill-informed?

[Morbert]

Originally Posted by diarmo06

Hear mumours of people being able to do a master of engineering of a physics undergrad. Am I ill-informed?

I'm not sure what you mean by a master of engineering of a physics undergrad. Do you mean an Engineering masters after a physics undergrad? The answer is yes, easily.

[diarmo06]

Originally Posted by Morbert

I'm not sure what you mean by a master of engineering of a physics undergrad. Do you mean an Engineering masters after a physics undergrad? The answer is yes, easily.

Yes, exactly what I mean. Struggling to phrase what i'm after here.
Would that entitlle me to most engineering jobs? Wouldn't be nglected due to a physics backround?
Even a phy/med degree. I'm told by the lecturer it's a base physics degree with a few modules on medphy.

Overall opinion on the value of a physics degree? Worthwhile/worthless?
Really would love some reassurance, not got alot of confidence for employablity in the field.

[krd]

Originally Posted by diarmo06

Even a phy/med degree. I'm told by the lecturer it's a base physics degree with a few modules on medphy.

Yep, that sounds like it.

Overall opinion on the value of a physics degree? Worthwhile/worthless?
Really would love some reassurance, not got alot of confidence for employablity in the field.

You're probably looking at immigrating, if you get the qualification and you want to work in the field.

The high viz "manly" stuff pays more. And you get a 4x4 and wellington boots. But it also means you have to be a real pain in the arse - and think the sun shines out of that arse. They don't teach you how to do that bow legged marching around in physics degree.

The thing is, if you want to be employable, you have to start looking for work as soon as you start the degree. Like trying to get a relevent work placement in the summer of your first year, and all the subsequent years. Visas to the US, that sort of thing. Having a degree by itself is not worth much.

If you can't get a relevent placement shortly after your degree - the degree has been a complete waste of time.

Have you thought of maybe doing something a little more lucrative? - like hairdressing, maybe.

[citrus burst]

If you want to do engineering why not just do engineering? Yes you should be able to move easily from one to the other, but you will be behind the pack in some ways if you do a physics degree, instead of an engineering one.

As per the choice between med and just a normal degree in physics, 75% (at least) will be just normal physics with the rest being more specialised in the medical aspect. i.e 1st and 2nd year will be pretty much identical, maybe the labs will be different and only when you go into 3rd year will things be slightly different. You major in physics and minor in medical physics.

There will always be jobs for physics graduates, you just gotta look in the right places. People think we are smart, they like the way we think etc. so they hire us. You might not think it, but a lot of physics graduates end up working for banks, insurance companies, investors etc or as computer programmers, which is a long way from what they did in college.

[krd]

Originally Posted by citrus burst

There will always be jobs for physics graduates, you just gotta look in the right places. People think we are smart, they like the way we think etc. so they hire us.

You might not think it, but a lot of physics graduates end up working for banks, insurance companies, investors etc or as computer programmers, which is a long way from what they did in college.

In Ireland, there are not very many physics jobs. In the US there are. Germany, Holland.

And there's been a little bit of a qualifications arms race. Jobs where a degree may have been fine at one time are now looking for Ph.Ds.

[diarmo06]

Don't get me wonrg here, really hold a huge interest in physics. I was, however, worried about jobs off the degree alone being hard to come by, which you've all agreed with. Just figured I'd have to be going to masters level anyway, just like to know what kind of options I have.
Have no hesitations about immigration either. What areas of physics are most employable in europe?

[Jernal]

I don't really get the negativity here? In Ireland there are tonnes of jobs for physicists. There are so many small little Irish owned companies scattered across the place that employ people of physics background. And that's before you even start looking at larger companies and non national ones. Physics is a hugely versatile degree.

Also, I disagree that a degree should automatically lead to a job. This sense of automatic entitlement that people have just because they have a degree they should have a job is baffling? Getting a job isn't just about your degree. Most companies will assess you behaviourly to see if you fit their company. See the Work and Jobs section of boards for the different type of interview techniques employed.
A degree is only a waste of time if you're still sticking to the same habits, have developed worse ones or worse case scenario learned absolutely nothing.

[krd]

Originally Posted by Jernal

I don't really get the negativity here? In Ireland there are tonnes of jobs for physicists. There are so many small little Irish owned companies scattered across the place that employ people of physics background. And that's before you even start looking at larger companies and non national ones. Physics is a hugely versatile degree.

Please don't start the whole "tonnes of jobs" out there thing. There aren't. And I've known enough people, who've either had to leave the country or work in something completely unrelated to their degree. And estimates I've heard of how many people actually end up in employment related to their studies have been pitifully low.

People get into trouble because they do not have their eyes wide open before hand.

Those small companies are out there. I'm not sure how many are left. The smaller companies often need someone to hit the ground running, if they can afford to hire people. Work placement, while you're doing your degree can give you a massive edge.

It's completely untrue the saying that all companies are the same. Some are run and staffed by complete assholes, and they're a nightmare to work at. A good placement, could see you with a good steady, lucrative career, with no major headaches.

There are really great jobs to be had, but it's really snakes and ladders - and you find yourself on your arse and nowhere near a ladder.

Read trade magazines. Find out who all the companies are and what they do. Try to find out how they do it.

Banks want physicists because they can do partial derivatives.

Also, I disagree that a degree should automatically lead to a job.

People train so they can find work. A degree is both an investment of time and money.

This sense of automatic entitlement that people have just because they have a degree they should have a job is baffling?

Your baffling me. If someone spends years training for something, why wouldn't they feel aggrieved if they can't get a job.

This is one of these warped upside ideas you have in Ireland and England. That it's shocking that someone who works for something should feel entitled to anything.

Getting a job isn't just about your degree. Most companies will assess you behaviourly to see if you fit their company.

This is the number one pratfall

Forget about your abilities or knowledge. Or your potential. When that woman in HR is interviewing you, she's judging you on the same basis as she'd pick out office furniture.

And that woman in HR was probably too thick and lazy to get into university. Maybe she has a qualification from one of the private colleges - some mikey mouse business thing. But she probably hasn't and her whole career was on nepotism.

And if you do get the job. You can lose it at the drop of a hat, if one of these types decide you just don't look right working in the office.

If you train as a barber, you really do have a lot less crap to put up with.

See the Work and Jobs section of boards for the different type of interview techniques employed.

When it comes down to it. Most job interviews are simply an exercises in bottom sniffing.

A degree is only a waste of time if you're still sticking to the same habits, have developed worse ones or worse case scenario learned absolutely nothing.

Please elaborate?

I have a strong feeling I know what you mean, but I'd love to hear you say it.

[Jernal]

Hope you don't mind me splicing this into nuggets.

Originally Posted by krd

Please don't start the whole "tonnes of jobs" out there thing. There aren't. And I've known enough people, who've either had to leave the country or work in something completely unrelated to their degree. And estimates I've heard of how many people actually end up in employment related to their studies have been pitifully low.

I know lots of people who are evidence to the contrary but anecdotes are no real use here and college course's graduate career stats are far from reliable. So I'd just like to leave it at that but if you want to discuss it further feel free to ask.

People get into trouble because they do not have their eyes wide open before hand.

I think that's a bit harsh, some people obviously don't have their eyes open but even for those that do circumstances can often present themselves that they can't do much about.

Those small companies are out there. I'm not sure how many are left. The smaller companies often need someone to hit the ground running, if they can afford to hire people. Work placement, while you're doing your degree can give you a massive edge.

There's still quite a lot of them. 100% agree that work placement is a huge asset to have.

It's completely untrue the saying that all companies are the same. Some are run and staffed by complete assholes, and they're a nightmare to work at. A good placement, could see you with a good steady, lucrative career, with no major headaches.

But where did I say that all companies are the same? Companies like to find people who'll fit in with their establishment that's the whole purpose of interviews to see if the candidate fits the desired role of the company.

Banks want physicists because they can do partial derivatives.

Plenty of mathematicians can do those. Physicists often possess the desired analytical and computational skills sought by the financial sector. Like, I said it's a versatile discipline.

People train so they can find work. A degree is both an investment of time and money.

Exactly and all investments have an element of risk associated with them.

Your baffling me. If someone spends years training for something, why wouldn't they feel aggrieved if they can't get a job.

This is one of these warped upside ideas you have in Ireland and England. That it's shocking that someone who works for something should feel entitled to anything.

It's just a fact of life that effort doesn't always merit reward. We built ourselves a society whereby almost everyone has a wrongful sense of self entitlement to success. Sometimes no matter how hard a person tries their effort simply doesn't produce any desirable outcome or quality. That's, sadly a fact of life. A degree is simply an investment gamble that you make in the hope of bettering your chances of getting the career you want but it in no way should guarantee it or give the student an automatic sense of self entitlement to a job or career progression. Life ain't hard or easy, fair or unfair, it simply just is. Sometimes you can do everything right and experience nothing but hell after hell. Other times you can do everything wrong and experience nothing but heaven. Learning to deal with not achieving a goal is the most important skill a person can be taught and yet our society has almost zero focus on it. Which is surprising when you consider how pathological our fear of failure is.

This is the number one pratfall

Forget about your abilities or knowledge. Or your potential. When that woman in HR is interviewing you, she's judging you on the same basis as she'd pick out office furniture.

And that woman in HR was probably too thick and lazy to get into university. Maybe she has a qualification from one of the private colleges - some mikey mouse business thing. But she probably hasn't and her whole career was on nepotism.

I'm not sure how to respond this section as it has kind of reeks of misogyny, but I am curious as to whether or not you've ever interviewed people for a job? I know people who work in HR. I even know a girl who ended up in HR with nothing but a Leaving Certificate. She's smarter and more competent than my so called qualified professionals friends I know. In fact, I have a rule in life and that's I couldn't give a sh*t about the number of letters behind a person's name or their position. All I care about is the reasoning behind their statements and actions. As far as I'm concerned everyone is equal. Simple.

Yeah, I don't deny some HR staff are idiots; some people are idiots. But expecting the worst of people before you've even met them is incredibly narrow minded and cynical. So what if she got her job through nepotism more luck to her. If she's an idiot then so be it.

And if you do get the job. You can lose it at the drop of a hat, if one of these types decide you just don't look right working in the office.

Obviously. The narrow minded type you described is liable to do just about anything.

If you train as a barber, you really do have a lot less crap to put up with.

Depends on where you train to be the barber.

When it comes down to it. Most job interviews are simply an exercises in bottom sniffing.

There's actually an entire field of behavioural science behind interviews and the techniques of them. Granted, not every company will apply them or even research them but some do and if you enter one of those interviews with the above attitude you might get the job.

Please elaborate?

I have a strong feeling I know what you mean.

I'm going to keep the criteria simply to the standard Irish student who's just completed the leaving certificate. It's no secret that the LC is a rote learning roller-coaster. So, the first bit is simple, if the student proceeds all the way through Uni doing nothing other than just using rote learning and last minute exam cramming then I consider the degree an utter waste of time.
The second bit is that they develop even lazier and more destructive habits. The final bit is that they simply learn nothing new.

but I'd love to hear you say it

Got an email address that I could send the audio recording to? Or shall I upload it to dropbox or the box?

[123SC]

Hi,
I'm also looking into this degree. Apparently people have gone on to do Radiotherapy, Radiography, Grad. Medicine or worked in the medical devices industry (and many more things I presume). You could also do a H.Dip and become a physics/maths secondary school teacher.
I presume the engineering you are asking about is clinical engineering!!
You should look up the masters degree in clinical engineering in Trinity. It might be under Medical Physics and then Clinical engineering is an option or something. Look into it, it looks like a nice job!

[krd]

Originally Posted by Jernal

I know lots of people who are evidence to the contrary but anecdotes are no real use here and college course's graduate career stats are far from reliable. So I'd just like to leave it at that but if you want to discuss it further feel free to ask.

Anecdotes are not really any great use. I remember the dot com bubble. The year before it burst, computer "science" graduates were being offered contracts before they graduated - not interviews, actual contracts, even sometimes sign on bonuses. And then the graduates who came in the immediate years afterwards, many found themselves virtually unemployable.

I think that's a bit harsh, some people obviously don't have their eyes open but even for those that do circumstances can often present themselves that they can't do much about.

You have to remember, the people starting these courses are very young. They can be absurdly naive. And they may have had no one to tell them anything - their school teachers' only experience of the world may have been graduating and getting a teaching job. A good chance they got that teaching job purely through nepotism.

There's still quite a lot of them. 100% agree that work placement is a huge asset to have.

Placement is the sine qua non, for many reasons. If you can get a handful of placements in before you graduate, you'll have a decent looking CV, and something to talk about in the interviews.

Companies like to find people who'll fit in with their establishment that's the whole purpose of interviews to see if the candidate fits the desired role of the company.

That would merit a longer discussion. Many companies, especially large companies, seek to create the nightmarish sci-fi dystopia of THX 1138 (look it up). All this crap you hear about the desire for innovation in businesses - the kind of eccentrics who create those innovations are precisely the people who HRs turn their noses up at. They have a preference for mediocrity and moronicity. I'm not exaggerating, I could name companies. I could call witnesses.

It's just a fact of life that effort doesn't always merit reward.

That's kind of perverse - nothing happens without effort. Creating systems, where there are perverse incentives, leads to very bad things. We absolutely need people to study really hard, learn stuff. We'd be screwed if all we had was mobile phone shop assistants and HR managers. We'd be no better off than the monkeys in the trees.

We built ourselves a society whereby almost everyone has a wrongful sense of self entitlement to success.

Not really. Most people do not believe if they get their chance to become a celebrity, get into the big brother house, that's how they'll progress in life. Most people believe, if they work hard they'll get somewhere. Without that attitude the whole world would collapse. All the technology we rely on, from agriculture to telecommunications, all that came through hard work. The people who put in the work, deserve reward.

Sometimes no matter how hard a person tries their effort simply doesn't produce any desirable outcome or quality. That's, sadly a fact of life. A degree is simply an investment gamble that you make in the hope of bettering your chances of getting the career you want but it in no way should guarantee it or give the student an automatic sense of self entitlement to a job or career progression.

Then simply they should not do their degrees, if they do not want to take the risk. Doing a degree, may put them in a worse position than if they hadn't done one.

And there was a time when getting a degree was not taking risks. It led to stable, reasonably well paid employment. Now many graduates can find themselves earning little more than minimum wage, and in very precarious employment.

Life ain't hard or easy, fair or unfair, it simply just is. Sometimes you can do everything right and experience nothing but hell after hell. Other times you can do everything wrong and experience nothing but heaven. Learning to deal with not achieving a goal is the most important skill a person can be taught and yet our society has almost zero focus on it. Which is surprising when you consider how pathological our fear of failure is.

The simpler answer is, that life is very complicated. Anger, bitterness, and even violence, are healthy reactions to getting screwed. And the people doing the screwing try to, and have been, very successful in just getting people to accept it.

I'm not sure how to respond this section as it has kind of reeks of misogyny, but I am curious as to whether or not you've ever interviewed people for a job?

No. If you met some of the people I'm talking about, or had to deal with them, you might find yourself becoming very misogynistic.

I know people who work in HR. I even know a girl who ended up in HR with nothing but a Leaving Certificate. She's smarter and more competent than my so called qualified professionals friends I know.

This is true. I know people with little or no formal education, and they really know their stuff. At the same time, there are people who intellectually lazy, and in positions they really shouldn't be.

In fact, I have a rule in life and that's I couldn't give a sh*t about the number of letters behind a person's name or their position. All I care about is the reasoning behind their statements and actions. As far as I'm concerned everyone is equal. Simple.

Not everyone sees the world that way. One thing you'll have to deal with in most Irish work places is snobbery, and hierarchical status, based on social status. For some people, these are terrible places to work - for others, they love it.

Yeah, I don't deny some HR staff are idiots; some people are idiots. But expecting the worst of people before you've even met them is incredibly narrow minded and cynical. So what if she got her job through nepotism more luck to her. If she's an idiot then so be it.

Yeah, fine. But what if the idiot turns your life upside down.

There's actually an entire field of behavioural science behind interviews and the techniques of them. Granted, not every company will apply them or even research them but some do and if you enter one of those interviews with the above attitude you might get the job.

Well, a lot of that "science" is completely bogus. For many really good jobs, the interview is just a formality. And really HRs just go on a "gut feeling" (god help you if there's anything eccentric in the way you look or talk, or how you might live).

I'm going to keep the criteria simply to the standard Irish student who's just completed the leaving certificate. It's no secret that the LC is a rote learning roller-coaster. So, the first bit is simple, if the student proceeds all the way through Uni doing nothing other than just using rote learning and last minute exam cramming then I consider the degree an utter waste of time.
The second bit is that they develop even lazier and more destructive habits. The final bit is that they simply learn nothing new.

I'm not sure, if I would want to blame the students. Ultimately, they are at the mercy of their teachers. And our post-colonial, cargo culting, attitude to education.

And back to the whole thing of being the "right fit" for an organisation. Schools are organisations. My secondary school. If they were interviewing for a post, if they were presented with someone who was bright, and enthusiastic about their subject, and a mean spirited moron. They'd go for the mean spirited moron, as they would be a better "fit" for the organisation.


And without getting started on stories, this crap goes on with 3rd level institutions too. Thank Christ these days for the internet.