[stateofflux]

Hi, going in to record my band soon using our own gear. used to borrow drum mics but want to get my own this time....ive already bought a d112 & 2 sm57's

really looking for 3 tom mics and a pair of overhead withins a budget of around 300 - 400.

any help appreciated

[fitz]

Originally Posted by stateofflux

Hi, going in to record my band soon using our own gear. used to borrow drum mics but want to get my own this time....ive already bought a d112 & 2 sm57's

really looking for 3 tom mics and a pair of overhead withins a budget of around 300 - 400.

any help appreciated

That kind of budget doesn't really allow for tom mics and overheads.
You can pick up a pair of Little Blondies for €200 shipped. They're fantastic and make great overheads, but as they are omnis, your room matters. If you've a decent room, they could be a good low cost option, and get some more 57's for the toms. You're looking at over €100 a piece for any useful tom mics.

Alternatively, try to pick up a mic kit second hand. I managed to back an Audix DP5a kit (1 x D6, 1 x i5, 2 x D2 and 1 x D4, all in a flightcase) on Adverts a while back for a little more than the top end of your budget.

Either way though you're going to struggle to get something decent on that budget. You could spend that on 1 Senn MD431 for example...

Have you got links to the music, so we can judge what kind of result you're after?
You may not need to spot mic everything, depending on the music and what the production direction is.

[fitz]

As a follow up, for example...and again, depending on the style of music and the production requirements...

You could just go with mics for overhead, kick and snare, and then use triggers for the toms: http://www.thomann.de/ie/ddrum_triggerset.htm

You'll have toms in the overheads anyway, but recording the trigger sounds would allow you to re-enforce with samples.

Considering your budget, I'd say that's probably your best option, as long as you've some nice drum samples already.

[stateofflux]

thanks fitz, really appreciate the advice.....i do have an se 2200a...would it be worth just getting 1 more condenser and using the two as overheads or should they be amatching pair?

thanks again

[fitz]

Wouldn't worry too much about matched pairs at that end of the market tbh. You could try mono overhead? You'd be surprised how well the can work, and it lessens phase issues...

[madtheory]

Matched pairs used to mean using consecutive serial numbers and/ or having the manufacturer measure all the mics and sell you the closest matching pair at a premium price. Most companies have far tighter tolerances these days so there's no need for that. Certainly not with SE anyway, their stuff is really well made.

I strongly disagree about mono overheads fitz. Mono sounds a lot smaller than stereo. You avoid "phase issues" by using correct stereo miking technique:
http://www.dpamicrophones.com/en/Mic...echniques.aspx

My pet hate is the typical spaced pair of cardioids- almost always too far apart because most people position them by eye at the outside edges of the kit, instead of by ear. You end up with a hole in the middle and the snare off to the right (audience perspective).

I prefer XY. It looks completely wrong when it sounds good! A carefully positioned spaced pair will sound wider than XY. But if you want a very small sound mono will work well.

The Beyerdynamic MCE530 stereo set is superb value for money. Very good as overheads and excellent on acoustic guitars.

Sennheiser E604 are excellent on toms but three of those is pushing the budget!

The Samson Qmic thingies are about €50, 3 tom mics. Haven't used them, but might be worth a try. The T Bone/ Karma mics are apparently great for the money, but I can't find anywhere that sells the tom mics on their own.

[fitz]

Originally Posted by madtheory

Matched pairs used to mean using consecutive serial numbers and/ or having the manufacturer measure all the mics and sell you the closest matching pair at a premium price. Most companies have far tighter tolerances these days so there's no need for that. Certainly not with SE anyway, their stuff is really well made.

I strongly disagree about mono overheads fitz. Mono sounds a lot smaller than stereo. You avoid "phase issues" by using correct stereo miking technique:
http://www.dpamicrophones.com/en/Mic...echniques.aspx

My pet hate is the typical spaced pair of cardioids- almost always too far apart because most people position them by eye at the outside edges of the kit, instead of by ear. You end up with a hole in the middle and the snare off to the right (audience perspective).

I prefer XY. It looks completely wrong when it sounds good! A carefully positioned spaced pair will sound wider than XY. But if you want a very small sound mono will work well.

The Beyerdynamic MCE530 stereo set is superb value for money. Very good as overheads and excellent on acoustic guitars.

Sennheiser E604 are excellent on toms but three of those is pushing the budget!

The Samson Qmic thingies are about €50, 3 tom mics. Haven't used them, but might be worth a try. The T Bone/ Karma mics are apparently great for the money, but I can't find anywhere that sells the tom mics on their own.

Mono may sound smaller than well placed stereo pairs, but depending on the music, it may work well is all I was saying... And it's slightly less effort in terms of placement.

Personally, I'd prefer stereo, but on a budget, mono is worth trying out...
I like XY too, but Recorderman is also really good if you're trying to limit room sound while getting a good overall kit picture. ORTF (slightly tweaked) can also sound great, or even try Glyn Johns if the music and room suit it...

[madtheory]

I don't think it makes sense to do mono just because one is on a budget, it's too much of a compromise. A pair of condensers do not cost very much. However as you say if it's an aesthetic decision, that's cool because then it's not a compromise!


IME recorderman is not as good as a well placed stereo pair. It gives a good sound on the face of it, but it's a pig to mix with. I think it's much more fruitful to take care to listen to the kit and listen to your mic positions- time well spent.

One of the best drum sounds ever is on Talk Talk's Laughing Stock. Phil Brown engineering. One U47. But the drummer, drums and room are all amazing. They tried 3 or 4 rooms in London before settling on Wessex I think it was. And they spent about a week positioning the kit in the room, and another few days choosing and positioning the mic. He did close mic it for cue mixes, but I'd be fairly certain none of those are on the mix. So it's an intimate "jazz" drum sound. Great album. The Phil Brown book is well worth a read.

[fitz]

Originally Posted by madtheory

I don't think it makes sense to do mono just because one is on a budget, it's too much of a compromise. A pair of condensers do not cost very much. However as you say if it's an aesthetic decision, that's cool because then it's not a compromise!


IME recorderman is not as good as a well placed stereo pair. It gives a good sound on the face of it, but it's a pig to mix with. I think it's much more fruitful to take care to listen to the kit and listen to your mic positions- time well spent.

One of the best drum sounds ever is on Talk Talk's Laughing Stock. Phil Brown engineering. One U47. But the drummer, drums and room are all amazing. They tried 3 or 4 rooms in London before settling on Wessex I think it was. And they spent about a week positioning the kit in the room, and another few days choosing and positioning the mic. He did close mic it for cue mixes, but I'd be fairly certain none of those are on the mix. So it's an intimate "jazz" drum sound. Great album. The Phil Brown book is well worth a read.

Agree with pretty much all of that, I'm only throwing out ideas like a mono overhead because I haven't heard the OPs music. Could be right for it, could, as you say, be too much of a compromise, but no point in him spending his small enough budget before rolling it out.

OP mic the kit with what you have I the room you plan on using, so you know what sounds you can get with what you have. Play around with placement of the sE, try a few feet in front of the kit too, instead of overhead.

I think what mad and I are both saying in different ways, is that you need to figure out the sounds you want to achieve, and figure out what techniques will get you that sound, the buy the gear you need to do so. That may be more or less than you think, but experimenting and getting to know what you have is a good idea to start.

[mkegvn]

http://www.red5audio.com/acatalog/Drum_Kit_Mics.html

Check these out. Bought them on a whim last year and I tend to use them more live than I do my Audix D2s.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AppseANniXo - Not the greatest demo, but it's an idea anyway.

[madtheory]

Cool, are those RED mics the ones that they rave about on SOS forums?

Ya the D2 is not great is it? The Senn E604 is far better.

Originally Posted by fitz

...but no point in him spending his small enough budget before rolling it out.

Agreed, but the mics I recommended come to a grand total of €250. Stereo overheads, no compromise and they're super on other instruments too. You even get a stereo bar. So money left over for cables, stands and food!

[DaDumTish]

the red 5 mics are pure SH1t3 , no matter who raves on them , avoid avoid .

all you need is two over heads and a kick mic , and self mix your playing


hit the tom hardest and eq them up in the overheads . ( broad q , + 4 db round 120 )
keep the hats and cymbals low by playing them easy not hard.
wack the snare but not as hard as the toms .

a modified recorderman methoid will centralise the snare and kick in the pan

[madtheory]

Originally Posted by DaDumTish

a modified recorderman methoid will centralise the snare and kick in the pan

Ha, if it has to be modified it clearly isn't very good!

[DaDumTish]

^^^
its a good concept , but if you do a little expreimenting , there are better places to put the overhaeds to capture the kit with the kick snare in middle and toms / cymbals in natrual places


i agree that spaced pair in the normal way is not great

[stateofflux]

thanks for tips, ill check out all the mics mentioned. my drummer insists on complete cymbal seperation so he overdubs all cymbals one by one (like on qotsa song for the deaf) as we had nightmares in the past with overspill....it has made mixing very easy thus far...