33 years in Prison for helping to find Bin Laden - Page 4 - boards.ie
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28-05-2012, 15:44   #46
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Seriously Pakistan, what the **** are you doing?
The US will not be paying the 25 million dollar bounty on Bin Laden as intelligence officials believe that no single person is responsible for putting investigators on his trail. Surely if the good doctor was so important to the capture he would have received enough money to relocate himself?

Instead they believe it was an operational mistake on the part of one of his aides, Abu Ahmed al Kuwaiti, in reusing a known mobile phone number that enabled them to trace Osama's whereabouts.

How did they obtain that mobile number originally? Interestingly it was a gift from the Pakistani intelligence service.

So yeah that's what they were doing. Bit more helpful than willfully endangering children that's for sure.
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28-05-2012, 16:04   #47
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So yeah that's what they were doing. Bit more helpful than willfully endangering children that's for sure.
Is there any proof that anybody was hurt in any way? If you could give a link to prove he gave inadequate vaccines?
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28-05-2012, 16:19   #48
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http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0524/pak...bin-laden.html

US officials had urged Pakistan to release the doctor, who ran a vaccination programme for the CIA to collect DNA.
The information gathered was used to verify the al-Qaeda leader's presence at the compound in the town of Abbottabad, where US commandos killed him in May 2011 in a unilateral raid.
The lengthy sentence for Dr Shakil Afridi will be taken as another sign of Pakistan's defiance of US wishes.
It could give more fuel to critics in the US that Pakistan - which has yet to arrest anyone for helping shelter Bin Laden - should no longer be treated as an ally.
The verdict came days after a NATO summit in Chicago that was overshadowed by tensions between the two countries.
Islamabad was invited in expectation that it would reopen supply lines for NATO and US troops to Afghanistan. It has blocked the lines for nearly six months to protest against US airstrikes that killed 24 Pakistani troops on the Afghan border.
However it did not reopen the routes, and instead repeated demands for an apology from Washington for the airstrikes.
Pakistan's treatment of Shakil Afridi since his arrest following the Bin Laden raid has in many ways symbolised the gulf between Washington and Islamabad.
In the US and other Western nations, Afridi was viewed as a hero who helped eliminate the world's most wanted man.
However Pakistan army and spy chiefs were outraged by the raid, which led to international suspicion that they had been harbouring the al-Qaeda chief.
In their eyes, Afridi was a traitor who had collaborated with a foreign spy agency in an illegal operation on its soil.
Afridi, who is in his 50s, was detained sometime after the raid, but the start of his trial was never publicised.


Seriously Pakistan, what the **** are you doing?

Bin Laden was an evil man, no doubt about that.

Fact remains however, that despite what the world at large may think about it, the doctor broke Pakistani national laws and committed a tresonous act, and deserves the sentance to go with it.

Give an inch, take a mile. You can't let this incident slide lest you create a casus belli for other crimes like this to go unpunished. Like sharing out Pakistani nuclear secrets etc. "oh but you freed him, so you should free me too...."
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28-05-2012, 16:33   #49
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Is there any proof that anybody was hurt in any way? If you could give a link to prove he gave inadequate vaccines?
According to the Washington Post he was traveling door to door offering to administer a hepatitis B vaccination. Although the vaccination was real it takes three doses to be effective. He only administered one meaning that the people he treated are not protected. The dangers from that are straightforward.

Added to that and far and away more reprehensible is that there is already an incredible amount of fear and mistrust in Pakistan about NGO vaccination programmes. Many people don't take part in them as they believe they are part of a secret Western agenda. Obviously for the many Western NGO staff in Pakistan and Afghanistan, their work has just become more difficult, perhaps insurmountably so. Who knows how many casualties will arise from the backlash against vaccinations?

And for what? These DNA samples that were taken were solely used to identify a body. Could they not have been harvested from his relatives during the assault or even taken voluntarily from one of Bin Laden's many, many blood relatives knocking around Europe?

The ends did not quite justify the means.

For further reading check out Maryn McKenna's excellent piece in Wired as well as Guardian piece that broke it. Google is your friend here.
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28-05-2012, 17:13   #50
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You can't let this incident slide lest you create a casus belli for other crimes like this to go unpunished. Like sharing out Pakistani nuclear secrets etc. "oh but you freed him, so you should free me too...."
Yup, it would create a dangerous precedent for other acts of treason. Although I think some sort of watch should be kept on him so he's not abused in that prision...
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29-05-2012, 09:03   #51
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Yup, it would create a dangerous precedent for other acts of treason. Although I think some sort of watch should be kept on him so he's not abused in that prision...
Or quietly silienced in a "he fell down the stairs" accident.
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29-05-2012, 09:12   #52
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Which children were injured?
The ones who didn't get the full vaccine, lives are in danger, as they think they were vaccinated. I posted a link earlier about that. BTW, I never used the word injured, but the fact remains they put the lives of children in danger.

Then, there is the damage that has been done to such programs, which will result in more harm to children.
Being vaccinated against hep b doesn't mean you can go around playing with hepatitis. At worst they are in exactly the same place they were before he came along.

My understanding though is that the vaccinations were real and some people did get properly vaccinated but when the truth behind the program got out then it had to be discontinued so people in the middle of their treatment lost out.
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29-05-2012, 09:16   #53
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Originally Posted by Tym View Post
Is there any proof that anybody was hurt in any way? If you could give a link to prove he gave inadequate vaccines?
According to the Washington Post he was traveling door to door offering to administer a hepatitis B vaccination. Although the vaccination was real it takes three doses to be effective. He only administered one meaning that the people he treated are not protected. The dangers from that are straightforward.

Added to that and far and away more reprehensible is that there is already an incredible amount of fear and mistrust in Pakistan about NGO vaccination programmes. Many people don't take part in them as they believe they are part of a secret Western agenda. Obviously for the many Western NGO staff in Pakistan and Afghanistan, their work has just become more difficult, perhaps insurmountably so. Who knows how many casualties will arise from the backlash against vaccinations?

And for what? These DNA samples that were taken were solely used to identify a body. Could they not have been harvested from his relatives during the assault or even taken voluntarily from one of Bin Laden's many, many blood relatives knocking around Europe?

The ends did not quite justify the means.

For further reading check out Maryn McKenna's excellent piece in Wired as well as Guardian piece that broke it. Google is your friend here.
This method was highlighted in a recent NCIS episode. The purpose of the DNA testing was to build up a road map of relatives and persons of interest, not just to search for one person or identify his body afterwards.
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29-05-2012, 09:44   #54
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This method was highlighted in a recent NCIS episode. The purpose of the DNA testing was to build up a road map of relatives and persons of interest, not just to search for one person or identify his body afterwards.
While I won't comment on the fictional plot of an NCIS episode, your assertion only makes sense if the Bin Laden family has a genetic predisposition for terrorism. Otherwise why is their familial DNA important? As there are no other Bin Laden family members on the US's watch list we can agree that they don't.

Therefore the DNA was collected for some other reason. The only plausible one being to positively identify Osama Bin Laden. As the vaccination program was a failure, as evidenced by the US not rewarding the doctor for his fake immunisation wheeze and yet Bin Laden's compound was still raided we can deduce that the DNA was not necessary pre mortem but rather to identify the body.

There were obviously far simpler ways of obtaining the necessary DNA then what they chose. Ones that didn't endanger local vaccination programs for example.
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29-05-2012, 09:59   #55
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Being vaccinated against hep b doesn't mean you can go around playing with hepatitis. At worst they are in exactly the same place they were before he came along.
No, the difference is that some people taught they were vacinated, and it also hurts other such programs.

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My understanding though is that the vaccinations were real and some people did get properly vaccinated but when the truth behind the program got out then it had to be discontinued so people in the middle of their treatment lost out.
You would be wrong. They never bothered going back. I posted a link earlier in regard to exactly what these idiots did. The program was a fake from the get go.

So the CIA and the so called "Doctor" put children in danger, by not giving them the full vaccine and they did it on purpose, and what they did will hurt future programs, as people will now be even more skeptical of such programs. What they did was morally repugnant, and quite frankly indefensible. There is no excuse for what they did.

Also, here is Doctors without border condeming the CIA for the damage they have done:
CIA's fake vaccination programme criticised by Médecins Sans Frontières

Last edited by wes; 29-05-2012 at 10:05.
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29-05-2012, 11:14   #56
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While I won't comment on the fictional plot of an NCIS episode, your assertion only makes sense if the Bin Laden family has a genetic predisposition for terrorism. Otherwise why is their familial DNA important? As there are no other Bin Laden family members on the US's watch list we can agree that they don't.

Therefore the DNA was collected for some other reason. The only plausible one being to positively identify Osama Bin Laden. As the vaccination program was a failure, as evidenced by the US not rewarding the doctor for his fake immunisation wheeze and yet Bin Laden's compound was still raided we can deduce that the DNA was not necessary pre mortem but rather to identify the body.

There were obviously far simpler ways of obtaining the necessary DNA then what they chose. Ones that didn't endanger local vaccination programs for example.
You are only focused on Bin Laden. The CIA don't think so small. A DNA database of all the people who lived in and around Bin Laden would be very useful to them, especially if you consider the fact that he likely had sympathisers and other members of Al Queda near him.

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No, the difference is that some people taught they were vacinated, and it also hurts other such programs.

You would be wrong. They never bothered going back. I posted a link earlier in regard to exactly what these idiots did. The program was a fake from the get go.

So the CIA and the so called "Doctor" put children in danger, by not giving them the full vaccine and they did it on purpose, and what they did will hurt future programs, as people will now be even more skeptical of such programs. What they did was morally repugnant, and quite frankly indefensible. There is no excuse for what they did.

Also, here is Doctors without border condeming the CIA for the damage they have done:
CIA's fake vaccination programme criticised by Médecins Sans Frontières
Yes I don't doubt it damages other programs but I stand by the assertion that not administering a proper vaccine endangers anyone. They were in that danger already. The doctor may not have aided them but neither did he put them in any greater danger.

Also, if it was fake from the get go does that mean the vacine wasn't real? If they had no intention of going back then I can't see why they would bother to use the proper vacine.
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29-05-2012, 11:37   #57
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Yes I don't doubt it damages other programs but I stand by the assertion that not administering a proper vaccine endangers anyone. They were in that danger already. The doctor may not have aided them but neither did he put them in any greater danger.
Except that they taught they were vaccinated, and if another proper program came along, they wouldn't go get vaccinated again, as they taught they were vaccinated. So yes, they did potentially harm children. Then there is the morality of getting access to the DNA of children under false pretenses, and various other moral issues.

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Also, if it was fake from the get go does that mean the vacine wasn't real? If they had no intention of going back then I can't see why they would bother to use the proper vacine.
Except that it was clearly shown they did not go back, and that there was no actual intention of going back. The article I linked even showed that the US lied about it as well:

Quote:
On Thursday night, a senior US government official defended the practice, saying it had been intended as "an actual vaccination campaign conducted by real medical professionals". He said the team was supposed to deliver the full course of three vaccinations to those treated in Abbottabad.

The official, who spoke on condition of anonymity, added: "And it's not as if this kind of campaign is something the CIA runs every day."

However, on the ground in Abbottabad the Guardian discovered that while the vaccine doses themselves were genuine, the medical professionals involved were not following procedures. In an area called Nawa Sher, they did not return a month after the first dose to provide the required second batch. Instead, according to local officials and residents, the team moved on, in April this year, to Bilal Town, the suburb where Bin Laden lived.
So it very clear, they didn't bother going back, and this unamed US official also lied about the whole thing as well. Clearly you didn't read the link and are just defending this morally repugnant program.

What was done was clearly indefensible and getting Bin Laden is no excuse for what CIA and this "Doctor" did. The fact that the US wants this man released, clearly show they have no issues with what they did, which shows that the US really doesn't care what damage it does, in going after terrorists. Which btw isn't all that different to how the terrorists they are after justify there own actions. As I said earlier the lives of Pakistani children have little value for American's, and you can be sure that people in that part of the world will remember what was done to there children.

What the CIA did will cause a great deal of damage to future vaccination programs, and may even put medical professionals in danger as well, which is btw what was said by Doctors without Borders.

Last edited by wes; 29-05-2012 at 11:41.
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29-05-2012, 12:03   #58
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You are only focused on Bin Laden. The CIA don't think so small. A DNA database of all the people who lived in and around Bin Laden would be very useful to them, especially if you consider the fact that he likely had sympathisers and other members of Al Queda near him.
Really? Well let's think about that.

The CIA knew that the compound didn't have a transient population and that the only person who left regularly was al Kuwaiti. They also knew that other people didn't visit the compound. Therefore, if your theory is correct, the CIA were interested enough in the current occupants of the compound to authorise collection of their DNA profiles.

Why then were the American seals given amended rules of engagement allowing them to kill anyone who got in their way whether or not they showed a credible threat? Obviously the CIA didn't think the residents were that high value to not even make an attempt to capture them. Five people were killed that night. Only one was armed.

Or perhaps you think the DNA collection was to ensure they killed the right Osama? Well, despite what Gibbs and the rest of the NCIS team would have you believe, DNA is useless without something to compare it to. So you have to wonder what DNA evidence the Americans used to positively ID the corpse. Did they do a quick swab of the other residents of the house while holding them at gun point? Nope. They compared his DNA to samples collected from his sister who had died of brain cancer several years beforehand while in Boston and whose remains had been subpoenaed and stored by the American authorities.

Really there was no point to such a dangerous operation unless, well I dunno but maybe the CIA loves polio and doesn't want to see it eradicated.

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Yes I don't doubt it damages other programs
You may not doubt it but you don't seem to understand that the damage to other programs is what's dangerous.

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but I stand by the assertion that not administering a proper vaccine endangers anyone. They were in that danger already. The doctor may not have aided them but neither did he put them in any greater danger.
Obviously if a person believes they are vaccinated to a certain threat they become less aware of that threat. That's just common sense.

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Also, if it was fake from the get go does that mean the vacine wasn't real? If they had no intention of going back then I can't see why they would bother to use the proper vacine.
It takes three genuine doses to become vaccinated. They only administered one. Therefore it doesn't matter if it was genuine or not. It wouldn't work
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29-05-2012, 12:14   #59
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Except that they taught they were vaccinated, and if another proper program came along, they wouldn't go get vaccinated again, as they taught they were vaccinated. So yes, they did potentially harm children. Then there is the morality of getting access to the DNA of children under false pretenses, and various other moral issues.
There is nothing to suggest they thought they were fully vaccinated. The claim is that the vaccination team did not return to finish the vaccine. I hhaven't see anything to suggest that they told the population they were fully vaccinated. If you have a quote that shows otherwise then I'll gladly read it. So if the population knew they were not treated fully then they would indeed take the vaccine if it came around again. But they wouldn't need to anyway. They don't need the full course again. All they need is the countinuation of the old one anyway.



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Except that it was clearly shown they did not go back, and that there was no actual intention of going back. The article I linked even showed that the US lied about it as well:
No it doesn't. It says it was meant as a full course but the team moved on. It doesn't say they weren't coming back. The second dose does not have to be administered exactly one month later. It has to be administered at least one month after. But obviously once the story broke about the doctors DNA program it made it impossible for them to return.

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So it very clear, they didn't bother going back, and this unamed US official also lied about the whole thing as well. Clearly you didn't read the link and are just defending this morally repugnant program.

What was done was clearly indefensible and getting Bin Laden is no excuse for what CIA and this "Doctor" did. The fact that the US wants this man released, clearly show they have no issues with what they did, which shows that the US really doesn't care what damage it does, in going after terrorists. Which btw isn't all that different to how the terrorists they are after justify there own actions. As I said earlier the lives of Pakistani children have little value for American's, and you can be sure that people in that part of the world will remember what was done to there children.

What the CIA did will cause a great deal of damage to future vaccination programs, and may even put medical professionals in danger as well, which is btw what was said by Doctors without Borders.
I'm not defending it. I don't care enough about it to feel the need to defend it. I just dislike people who try to get their point across with exaggeration and bull**** like some Helen Lovejoy personification. This "endangering the children" nonsense is exactly that. The children are no worse of than they were before.
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29-05-2012, 12:26   #60
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There is nothing to suggest they thought they were fully vaccinated. The claim is that the vaccination team did not return to finish the vaccine. I haven't see anything to suggest that they told the population they were fully vaccinated.

If you have a quote that shows otherwise then I'll gladly read it.
The fact that the families vaccinated, didn't bring up the issue themselves, show that they taught there children were vaccinated. They surely would have complained about the lack of a follow up.

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So if the population knew they were not treated fully then they would indeed take the vaccine if it came around again.
They clearly didn't know, as they 2nd part was meant to be distrubuted after a month.

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But they wouldn't need to anyway. They don't need the full course again. All they need is the countinuation of the old one anyway.
They may need the full course, I have no idea how one would need to proceed in this sort of situation.

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No it doesn't. It says it was meant as a full course but the team moved on. It doesn't say they weren't coming back.
The fact that they never came back proves you wrong. The article I linked clearly show they have 0 intention of returning and were there to harvest DNA samples. The intention is very clear as per there actions.

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The second dose does not have to be administered exactly one month later. It has to be administered at least one month after. But obviously once the story broke about the doctors DNA program it made it impossible for them to return.
More excuses for medical malpractice I see. They moved on to another area. They clearly had 0 intention of ever coming back. Otherwise, they would have shown up on time or soon after. So unless you can show me your medical expertise, I am siding with Doctors without Borders on this one. I have yet to see you provide a single shred of proof of any intent to return. I have already shown clearly, that there was 0 intent to return and that the program was a ruse and nothing more. So again, excuse after excuse/

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I'm not defending it.
I am sorry, but this is utterly absurd statement to make. You have defended there deplorable actions, with excuse after excuse for several posts. If you going to defend this sort of nonsense, at least admit to it.

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I don't care enough about it to feel the need to defend it.
And yet you have made multiple posts doing exactly that. Seriously, this is some comedy stuff right there.

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I just dislike people who try to get their point across with exaggeration and bull**** like some Helen Lovejoy personification.
I dislike people who defend people who use endager children, and seem to think its ok to collect there DNA, against the wishes of them and there parents, but then there Pakistani children, so who cares about there safety and rights. The CIA, American government, and A corrupt Pakistani "Doctor" clearly didn't, as do there defenders.

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This "endangering the children" nonsense is exactly that. The children are no worse of than they were before.
Yes, they are. They taught there were vaccinated. There parents may not allow them to get vacinated again due to this. They have been endangered pretty damn clearly. Doctors without Borders, have said very clearly what damage was done.

The fact is that clearly putting Pakistani children in danger is not an issue for you, is rather disgusting. You have spent several posts defending the indefensible and then claim you weren't. Truly astonishing nonsense right there. If you want to defend the CIA, and there dodgy crap, then at least have the decency to admit to it.

The damage done by this stupidity was clearly outlined by Doctors without Borders, and the damage will take years and years to be fixed. So good job CIA, they have ensured more victims fo diseases that could easily be eradicated. I am sure they are very proud of themselves, as they seem to value Human lives about as much as the people they are looking to kill.

Your posts are some of the worst sort of apologetic nonsense imho. Then there is the fact you deny defending this at all, after doing exactly that over multiple posts. As I said earlier, this is some comedy stuff.

Last edited by wes; 29-05-2012 at 12:35.
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