[A Dub in Glasgo]

The loyalist militia were part and parcel of the British security forces or to put it another way the British security forces were part and parcel of the loyalist milita

[true]

Originally Posted by A Dub in Glasgo

The loyalist militia were part and parcel of the British security forces or to put it another way the British security forces were part and parcel of the loyalist milita

lol. Fraiser went to a Catholic school. Did they teach you the above in the Catholic school you went to too?

[J Cheever Loophole]

Originally Posted by true

lol. Fraiser went to a Catholic school. Did they teach you the above in the Catholic school you went to too?

I'm loathe to get into this debate as no doubt someone somewhere will point the sectarian finger at me. However, if you google the 'Glenanne Gang', you will see the degree to which that actually happened in this particular area of South Armagh in the early troubles (pre 1977).

I'm totally against violence - the sanctity of human life comes first for me - and the nature of the violence back then highlighted the futility and waste of it all - tit-for-tat killings were the norm and an awful lot of people died needlessly - those included the innocents caught up in the Dublin and Monaghan bombings of 1974.

Despite all the hurt, I think a lot of people have learned to put the past behind them and move on for the greater good. Willie does not appear to be able to do that. The fact though that he is now seen as such a pathetic and isolated figure, simply for thinking and talking as many others did in public twenty years ago, is a sign of how times have moved on, and that has to be a good thing.

[Born to Die]

Green, white and Gold.

[true]

Originally Posted by J Cheever Loophole

However, if you google ......

Google anything political and paper does not refuse ink and anyway I'm well aware of both sides of the argument.
Like you I am totally against violence. I can also understand how someone like Fraiser can feel how he does given experiences he has had, including intimidation and murder of 6 members of his family etc. I can also understand how some kids got indoctrinated in to the PIRA etc., and as a result of experiences they had. To understand the conflict you have to imagine what it would be like - or have been like - in the other persons shoes.
Thankfully times have moved on, and as you say that has to be a good thing.

[fasttalkerchat]

Originally Posted by J Cheever Loophole

I'm loathe to get into this debate as no doubt someone somewhere will point the sectarian finger at me. However, if you google the 'Glenanne Gang', you will see the degree to which that actually happened in this particular area of South Armagh in the early troubles (pre 1977).

I'm totally against violence - the sanctity of human life comes first for me - and the nature of the violence back then highlighted the futility and waste of it all - tit-for-tat killings were the norm and an awful lot of people died needlessly - those included the innocents caught up in the Dublin and Monaghan bombings of 1974.

Despite all the hurt, I think a lot of people have learned to put the past behind them and move on for the greater good. Willie does not appear to be able to do that. The fact though that he is now seen as such a pathetic and isolated figure, simply for thinking and talking as many others did in public twenty years ago, is a sign of how times have moved on, and that has to be a good thing.

Well said. If there's to be any hope for Ireland we need to leave people like him in the past.

[Chuck Stone]

Originally Posted by true

So you tar the hundreds of thousands of people who served in the security services in N. Ireland , and think they should all have been intimidated and murdered like the five members of Fraisers family, inc his father?

No. I don't think any killing is a good thing. Nice strawman. I'm just countering your construction of this image of the northern security forces as virtuous peace-keepers. They weren't.

Here's the first year of the cain statistics security forces 'peace keeping'.

14 July 1969 Francis McCloskey (67) Catholic
Status: Civilian (Civ), Killed by: Royal Ulster Constabulary (RUC)
Died one day after being hit on head with batons during street disturbances, Dungiven, County Derry.

17 July 1969 Samuel Devenny (42) Catholic
Status: Civilian (Civ), Killed by: Royal Ulster Constabulary (RUC)
Died three months after being badly beaten in his home, William Street, Bogside, Derry. He was injured on 19 April 1969.

14 August 1969 John Gallagher (30) Catholic
Status: Civilian (Civ), Killed by: Ulster Special Constabulary (USC)
Shot during street disturbances, Cathedral Road, Armagh.

14 August 1969 Patrick Rooney (9) Catholic
Status: Civilian (Civ), Killed by: Royal Ulster Constabulary (RUC)
Shot at his home, during nearby street disturbances, St Brendan's Path, Divis Flats, Belfast.

15 August 1969 Hugh McCabe (20) Catholic
Status: British Army (BA), Killed by: Royal Ulster Constabulary (RUC)
On leave. Shot during street disturbances while on the roof of Whitehall Block, Divis Flats, Belfast.

15 August 1969 Samuel McLarnon (27) Catholic
Status: Civilian (Civ), Killed by: Royal Ulster Constabulary (RUC)
Shot at his home during nearby street disturbances, Herbert Street, Ardoyne, Belfast.

15 August 1969 Michael Lynch (28) Catholic
Status: Civilian (Civ), Killed by: Royal Ulster Constabulary (RUC)
Shot during street disturbances, Butler Street, Ardoyne, Belfast.

01 December 1969 Patrick Corry (61) Catholic
Status: Civilian (Civ), Killed by: Royal Ulster Constabulary (RUC)
Died four months after being hit on the head with batons, during altercation between local people and Royal Ulster Constabulary (RUC) patrol, Unity Flats, off Upper Library Street, Belfast. Injured on 2nd August 1969.

http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/sutton/chron/1969.html

Statistics show that in the troubles in N. Ireland , approximately 60% of the dead were killed by republicans, 30% by loyalists and 10% by British security forces.

Did you ever attempt to break those statistics down? I have and came up with this.

Provisional IRA was responsible for the deaths of 1,824 people

621 (34%) of these casualties were civilians.

---------------------------------------------------

British Army killed 305 people during Operation Banner.

156 (~51%) were civilians.
---------------------------------------------------

the UVF and RHC was responsible for 481 deaths

412 (~85%) civilian.

Republican paramilitary 4%.

http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/sutton/book/

Here's some more damning evidence of security force 'impartiality'.

Subversion in the UDR.

Seriously, the security forces were part of the problem rather than part of the solution.

The fact that the RUC was effectively disbanded and reconstructed attempting to normalise it as a proper civilian police service is the ultimate evidence of the non-impartiality of the security forces.

[WoollyRedHat]

Why is he in any position of influence or relevance for that matter, coming out with bizarre comments such as those posted? A nine year old xbox gamer would be more insightful than him. More fool for the school taking down the flags, idiots all round.

[Chamone MF]

Originally Posted by Cossax

There are two colours on the flag, white and red.
There are two bands on the flag, each taking up half the flag.
There is no blue on the flag.

EDIT:
http://img.u.tv/galleries/777/620x34...e_17052012.jpg

The red band even takes up half the visible flag!

No blue on the flag ....
Get to specsavers.
Perhaps you could magnify it many times, or ask a fully sighted friend to tell you.
Here's a clue: the Turkish flag (thats the one on the right for you) and the Italian flag both come quite close to the top of the flagpole. While the flag on the left cannot if there are only two colours.
I'm posting you a copy in braille.

[Crooked Jack]

Originally Posted by Born to Die

Green, white and Gold.

Green, white and orange. This gold rubbish came from free staters trying to exclude the north and/or the protestant community from the flag after partition.

[BunShopVoyeur]

Originally Posted by Crooked Jack

http://www.u.tv/News/School-‘IRA-you...5-a16348618fac

This prick has been a scourge on the south Armagh area for years. He's constantly showing himself up like this but it's rare that his idiocy gets beyond the local media.

The thick cnut.

[Dudess]

Originally Posted by Fenian Army

Lordsutch, not surprised at his antics, always has been anti Irish.

Well he's Irish himself - but he has a highly amusing thing going on where he licks up to loyalists... as if they'd welcome him.

[Nodin]

Originally Posted by true

So you tar the hundreds........ abiding catholic.

I believe Chuck has beaten me to it. If a decent weapon was found in the hands of a loyalist in the early 70's, odds are it came from the UDR. The B-specials rebranded.

[fryup]

Originally Posted by fryup

no one votes for willie frazer.. but martin ferris tops the polls in the republic (north kerry) so who are we to complain

Originally Posted by Dudess

Huh? A bunch of misguided people in Kerry vote for Ferris so "we" throughout Ireland are being hypocrites by criticising this bigot?

a bunch of people in kerry what are you on about

SF get plenty of support throughout the republic its on the constant increase

and back in the day during the troubles there was plenty of support for the IRA as well.........there's "certain people" down my way who won't be happy until every last protestant in the north is dead

so yes, who are we to complain

[Nodin]

....so now its "but Sinn Fein...." to the rescue of willie frazer. Theres no comparison between an isolated sectarian bigot and a widely supported non-sectarian party. Sinn Fein did more for some of Willie Frazers supposed constituents than he ever did.