[Min]

Originally Posted by Nodin

As asked earlier - Are all "sinners" denied the ability to call on others to cease their sinning?



So be quiet about the bad things that others have been involved in, in case somebody mentions your past.

That's not really a very solid platform for a Cardinal of the Church to base his moral authority on, is it?

He without sin cast the first stone.

No one is saying about being quiet about bad stuff that happened, just don't stand on the high moral ground when at the same time Eamon Gilmore was supporting radicals and extremists who were involved in crime upto the level of murder, regimes that caused great suffering. This is a man who continued to support these views upto the late 80s to early 90's when he couldn't claim ignorance to what the official IRA and the workers party were involved.
This is what I am talking about, the high moral ground is not a place where Eamon Gilmore should be standing, when he has failed to deal with his own past and the shady goings on in the workers party and the illegal activities of the official IRA.

Originally Posted by Ash.J.Williams

Are you saying that Gilmore, during the 80's, withheld information that could have imprisoned leaders of foreign regimes, thus saving the lives of millions?

He gave support to regimes who killed millions, he continued to supprt the official IRA after they murdered people, maybe he withheld this information from his own brain when he activitely supported all of these.

Originally Posted by harney

Two questions:

1 Who are these "best friends" you mention?

2 If the child was born, how is that abortion?

I would have thought that was murder rather than either abortion or child abuse.

1. In the past it was when his party, the workers party looked for money from the Soviet Union, China, North Korea, East Germany and so on. Now it is China who praises the Irish government for being anti-Catholic...well it was reported in a Chinese newspaper.

2. The child was not born, it had it's head injected with poison while in the womb of this woman who was forced to have an abortion, then she was given drugs to induce contractions for it to be born, the unborn baby had not died before the drugs brought it into the world where it cried in pain before it died. I could post a link to the story with pictures but it would not be suitable.
This is the kind of activity that the blind Chinese activist was protesting about before he was arrested and his family attacked, the Chinese government were not happy that this person is against forced abortions.

Originally Posted by juan.kerr

More deflection. Let's forget about Sinn Fein IRA and focus on Brady.

No one is deflecting from anything, just the high moral ground is a dangerous place for a lot of people to be currently standing on.

Martin McGuinness telling Cardinal Brady to resign over the past, well one could ask why is someone linked to a murder back in the past standing on the high moral ground over something in the past...

This is what I am saying, the double standards being applied by politicians who say someone should resign over the past when they wouldn't resign over their own past.

[Nodin]

Originally Posted by Min

He without sin cast the first stone..

Gilmore was not the first to cast a "stone" at Brady.

Originally Posted by Min

No one is saying about being quiet about bad stuff that happened, just don't stand on the high moral ground when at the same time Eamon Gilmore ..........
..

What "high ground" is Gilmore assuming?

Originally Posted by Min

..........was supporting radicals IRA and the workers party were involved.
..

Why do you keep repeating in detail the same tirade against Gilmore in every post? It should be obvious that I've read same earlier, as have others.

[Lockstep]

Would I be right in guessing you're a Catholic Min?

You seem unfazed by Brady and yet highly critical of Gilmore.

[Wild Bill]

Couldn't care less about Brady.

But the hypocrisy of a goon who lied his way into Government and was a former pal of North Korea is revolting.

The sooner Gilmore is brought to account, the sooner we can set about restoring the country.

[Gurgle]

Originally Posted by Min

He without sin cast the first stone.

Would it be inaccurate to accuse you of 'casting stones' at Mr Gilmore?

Are you, by your own criteria, qualified?
(i.e. perfect, as was the point I believe your messiah was making at the time)

[Sarky]

Originally Posted by Wild Bill

The sooner Gilmore is brought to account, the sooner we can set about restoring the country.

Yeah, let's go back to our good old traditional values, say from the 70's, where people would know what was going on, and choose not to... Uh, Where families would hush up abuse for fear of... Er, I mean, where nobody questioned a priest's authority because they...

Well crap.

[Wild Bill]

Originally Posted by Sarky

Yeah, let's go back to our good old traditional values, say from the 70's, where people would know what was going on, and choose not to... Uh, Where families would hush up abuse for fear of... Er, I mean, where nobody questioned a priest's authority because they...

Well crap.

Yeah, and if the Gilmore of the 1970s and 1980s had had his way we'd be living in a North Korean type state today.

That would be soo much better, wouldn't it?

[Sarky]

North Korean? Really? You think any Irish politician of the last 50 years has the cunning and charisma and military force to set up a totalitarian cult of personality? With the typical Irish person looking for any excuse to insult someone who gets even a little bit too big for their boots?

Nobody's ever tried actual communism, so I guess we'll never know. Although I think it's reasonable to suspect that the reduction in power the catholic church would have had would make covering up the child abuse far more difficult, so there'd be that at least. Or is child abuse a price we just have to pay for democracy and freedom and stuff?

[Wild Bill]

Originally Posted by Sarky

North Korean? Really? You think any Irish politician of the last 50 years has the cunning and charisma and military force to set up a totalitarian cult of personality?

No! That's why Gilmore did a u-turn when the Berlin Wall fell. It was a grim time for the Stickies!

Nobody's ever tried actual communism, so I guess we'll never know.

They've tried it all right - but it's like Christianity; a daft idea given what evolution has hard-wired into human nature.

Or is child abuse a price we just have to pay for democracy and freedom and stuff?

(Relative) Freedom comes with a price tag. Let's not cry about it.

[mistermouse]

I agree with some of the sentiment, to the degree that people in power should look in their own wardrobes before bringing skeletons into the Dail
Gilmore's failure in Government see's him looking at other ways to deflect attention from other issues also

But, as a member of the Catholic Church, a high ranking member at that, the Cardinal must see he made a major failing at the time. Irrelevant of how things were done back then, and lots of things were done badly, he should show that he accepts his failings then, failings that are should have seemed relevant then but should have been and are now

He should not resign to appease the likes of Gilmore or any Politician as they have all plenty to repent, but he should resign as he failed those children then, and can no way justify it.

He also is doing serious damage to the Church he belongs to by holding onto power. Politicians crave and do everything to keep power, churchmen should know better than to seek to hold power at all costs

[donaghs]

Let's separate out the two issues. Clearly Brady has questions to answer.

Soo does Gilmore. But don't think Gilmore's ideological "crimes" are anywhere near as bad as what Brady is implicated in.

Gilmore though is a hypocrite, who did align himself with some fairly evil people when everyone else knew better. Maybe once he did believe in that stuff. But what is he now? A careerist wind-bag with nothing of any substance to say or do. His comments on Brady strike me as the words of a politician reading the popular mood, not speaking from the heart.

[itzme]

Originally Posted by Min

Eamon Gilmore in the Dáil today:
"As far as your question about the Government's position in relation to Cardinal Brady is concerned, let me say this, I have always believed in the separation of church and state,”
“I think it is the job of government and of the State to enact out laws and to ensure that those laws apply to everybody, whether they belong to a church or not.
"But it is my own personal view that anybody who did not deal with the scale of the abuse that we have seen in this case should not hold a position of authority."

ok that is fine for Eamon Gilmore to say, but if we apply the logic of Eamon Gilmore, are we to believe that Gilmore didn't know about the horrific effects of communism on people? How millions of people died under these regimes, how men, women and children were abused under these regimes?

Surely Eamon Gilmore should resign if we are to judge people on what they did in the past given the knowledge they have.
Did Eamon Gilmore not know that communism is responsible for horrific abuse?
Surely he wouldn't be inviting over his best friends from China who still force women to have abortions and are involved in a lot of human rights abuses.
We have seen in the past week how a blind Chinese human rights activist escaped from house arrest. He was being held under house arrest for supporting women who were forced to have abortions by the Chinese regime.

For Eamon Gilmore, it all depends on whose abuse is acceptable when it comes to him saying "But it is my own personal view that anybody who did not deal with the scale of the abuse that we have seen in this case should not hold a position of authority"

Can I just say thank you Min, after a decently long day I did need a good laugh. I honestly (no kidding) think you could have the spark of a playwright, that level of satire desires an audience

[Wild Bill]

Originally Posted by donaghs

Soo does Gilmore. But don't think Gilmore's ideological "crimes" are anywhere near as bad as what Brady is implicated in.

Actually, they are a lot worse.