[Fenian Army]

Originally Posted by KickstartHeart

The BA did guard the maize prison. Their failure to follow basic SOP's ended up causing a massive escape..but we'll not get into that...


Why do people think things to do with the military are a 'waste of money'.

Last year single parents cost the state 2 Billion in social welfare. The Defence Forces and what it does costs a hell of a lot less, and actually gives something. If your'e looking to brand things as a 'waste of money' point elsewhere.


There are still very dangerous prisoners in that prison. Ireland is not texas, our police and prison service are primarily not armed. With prisoners like that there needs to be an armed guard. The Defence Forces fills that gap.

I wouldn't slag the Brits off too much its not as if the defense forces prevented all escapes

[KickstartHeart]

Originally Posted by Fenian Army

I wouldn't slag the Brits off too much its not as if the defense forces prevented all escapes

I'm not slagging anyone off.

I'm not suggesting the defence forces prevented all escapes.

[John_D80]

Portlaoise prison NEEDS an armed gaurd. The military presence acts as a huge deterrent to any attempted escape or assisted break-out. The alternative to the army doing this role is either privatisation (which lets face it is not even a remote possibility) or increasing the amount of PO's on duty 24/7, not to mention arming them!!! Both options would cost the state and taxpayer an awful lot more than having the army fulfil this role.

[harley head]

Originally Posted by John_D80

Portlaoise prison NEEDS an armed gaurd. The military presence acts as a huge deterrent to any attempted escape or assisted break-out. The alternative to the army doing this role is either privatisation (which lets face it is not even a remote possibility) or increasing the amount of PO's on duty 24/7, not to mention arming them!!! Both options would cost the state and taxpayer an awful lot more than having the army fulfil this role.

Good point, when you look at it the shower inside the walls of Portlaoise
prison are more dangerous than ever the political boys were.

[Makikomi]

Originally Posted by FANTAPANTS

why privatise it no other country that i know has armed soldiers watching over scum.... the prison officers can do it .... not looking for a war on this mate but its money ill -spent were it could be pumped into temple streets kids hospital instead of scummers

Excellent idea for saving money - pay PO's probably triple what it costs the tax payer to provide the service by using the army.

You served in Portloaise?.

I bet you weren't feeling so high and mighty at the time when you were putting out your hand for the Portlaoise allowance eh

[Maoltuile]

Originally Posted by John_D80

or increasing the amount of PO's on duty 24/7, not to mention arming them!!! Both options would cost the state and taxpayer an awful lot more than having the army fulfil this role.

Arming them isn't far-fetched, nor should it cost a whole lot (just give 'em surplus Steyrs )

There's one hell of a lot of old DF hands in the prison service who could be tasked to do it.

[Rawhead]

As a serving PO I can tell you that with the jellyfish that are the management in our job I would never ever carry a gun. They are trying to sack officers for cursing at the dirty lags, never mind shooting the bastards.
Its not the cost, lack of expertise or willingness to arm PO's that is the problem but the lack of educated, competent and brave leaders/managers.

Leave it to the PDF, they do a good job and it's not like they really have much else to do.

[John_D80]

Originally Posted by Maoltuile

Arming them isn't far-fetched, nor should it cost a whole lot (just give 'em surplus Steyrs )

I was referring to the fact that I believe it would cost so much more in terms or pay and overtime to have extra armed PO's in the prison.

[John_D80]

Originally Posted by Rawhead

........they do a good job and it's not like they really have much else to do.

Is this meant to be funny or are you actually serious? Or trolling even?

[Zambia]

Not many European countries use their army to police prisons.

In reality it should be phased out and the armed ability given to another non military body.

Privatisation (including armed )as nasty as it sounds should not be discounted.

[Praetorian Saighdiuir]

Originally Posted by Zambia

Not many European countries use their army to police prisons.

In reality it should be phased out and the armed ability given to another non military body.

Privatisation (including armed )as nasty as it sounds should not be discounted.

Any suggestions? Im fairly sure private armed security firms will not be introduced here.

[Zambia]

Why not in essence they use the same raw material as the state. Why would they not be introduced? They exist all over Europe in essence its just a matter of regulation.

[Praetorian Saighdiuir]

Regulation, in theory would not be a problem.

I would imagine the biggest problem would be the huge list of cons that could arise out of having private armed security companies operating in the state. They could obviously be used for quite a number of things here and could be quite a money spinner for the operators but I cant realistically see any Administration authorising the use of these companies.

As soon as something goes wrong it would give the Government such a headache that it would not be worth it to them to give them the green light.

[minidazzler]

Originally Posted by Zambia

Not many European countries use their army to police prisons.

In reality it should be phased out and the armed ability given to another non military body.

Privatisation (including armed )as nasty as it sounds should not be discounted.

Looking at the costs for one.

Soldier will get his basic pay + Portlaoise money which costs for arguments sake 50 euro extra a week per soldier. We'll presume there are 30 on PL Detail at all times (in rotating shifts) throughout the year. That's 1500 a week and 78000 a year.

Now, hire a private security firm to do it. The contract goes for tender, and to have 10 men on at all times, rotating the shifts, so having 40+ staff just for PL (relief staff included), you'll be paying each staff member €32000 a year given they are armed security in a prison. That's around 1.3 million euro, and that's just the staff on the walls, multiply it by 1.5 to get how much the company would be paid, and then add VAT on top of that. You're talking 3 million + euro a year when everything is called into play. And lets be fair, it would be granted to some TD's Buddy.


The Security aspect.

The soldiers detailed to PL are there for a few weeks at a time and then rotated out, so there is no time for anyone to find out who they are, and blackmail them to do something they shouldn't.

You have a private security firm, they're gonna have the same old boys, getting the same old wages, all of whom would live within 30 miles of Portlaoise and who could with time be identified and easily targeted for blackmail to either take stuff in or look the other way. And besides that, who decides who is hired and put on the wall? You would have a list of wannabe rambo's as long as your arm applying for the job, the Garda, Army and Jailer rejects would show up in droves and a lot of them would end up getting hired.


And having jailers do it would have more issues than a Private Security firm. Procuring weapons, picking staff, putting them through psychometric tests, weeding out the weirdo's, training them in weapons handling. And then they have the same security issues to deal with, as they currently do, but now they have weapons. And you'd have to pay the PO's extra allowances, probably far more than the army, just because it's not part of what they signed up for.

The system currently in place is pretty damn cheap and probably the safest with the constant rotation. Though, maybe one thing to do which I don't know is currently done, is to ensure that the brother of any soldier on the wall is not in the prison.

Disclaimer: I am neither a soldier nor a jailer, just looking at this from a logical point of view

[Zambia]

Originally Posted by minidazzler

You're talking 3 million + euro a year when everything is called into play. And lets be fair, it would be granted to some TD's Buddy.

Sorry that should be a thing of the past by now if the state cat stop that all of this falls flat.


The Security aspect.

Originally Posted by minidazzler

The soldiers detailed to PL are there for a few weeks at a time and then rotated out, so there is no time for anyone to find out who they are, and blackmail them to do something they shouldn't.

The staff should be trained to protect this information the PO's I assume do.

Originally Posted by minidazzler

You have a private security firm, they're gonna have the same old boys, getting the same old wages, all of whom would live within 30 miles of Portlaoise and who could with time be identified and easily targeted for blackmail to either take stuff in or look the other way. And besides that, who decides who is hired and put on the wall? You would have a list of wannabe rambo's as long as your arm applying for the job, the Garda, Army and Jailer rejects would show up in droves and a lot of them would end up getting hired.

If the state has proper vetting for security licences and security companies this should not be an issue. Lets face it the Garda have not recruited in years and the Army does not have the space to take up all decent candidates. Many of your "rejects" could be perfectly capable staff.

You cant not do something because you are in mortal fear of hiring idiots.

Originally Posted by minidazzler

And having jailers do it would have more issues than a Private Security firm. Procuring weapons, picking staff, putting them through psychometric tests, weeding out the weirdo's, training them in weapons handling. And then they have the same security issues to deal with, as they currently do, but now they have weapons. And you'd have to pay the PO's extra allowances, probably far more than the army, just because it's not part of what they signed up for.

They are Prison Officers it what they do. This extra money for changing Shoelace colour in the civil service has to go to.

Originally Posted by minidazzler

The system currently in place is pretty damn cheap and probably the safest with the constant rotation.
Disclaimer: I am neither a soldier nor a jailer, just looking at this from a logical point of view

Logically the Army are not prison guards for the state they have their own jobs to attend to.