[Finnbar01]

Originally Posted by Cabaal

Are these the same cuts that nobody will face up to because some just can't be made?

So say we cut the dole from what it is at the moment to oh I don't know maybe 150e a week, since its one of the biggest outgoings for the government it seems its the best thing to change to have the biggest affect.

We'll then cut further funding for education, HSE, public transport and roads,

Ok then we'll try make massive cuts across the public sector and watch the rolling strikes that will happen because of it,

In time we may indeed balance those books but at what cost exactly?
- Loss of multinational investments
- An employment rate in excess of 20%+ (Hi Spain!)
- Work stoppages to remind us of the strikes in the 80's, these will of course put companys off investing in Ireland further
- Even more emigration as people can't live on 150e a week in Ireland

You want the eu to fail and Ireland to make deep cuts then perhaps you should look at a likely reality of the outcome if such things were allowed to happen.

The Eurozone is flawed and is a contradiction in and of itself, that's why it will collapse.

Incidentally both yourself and sully are scaremonegring. This country has been through the rough and tough before and we got thru it.

[tfitzgerald]

I am going to vote NO!

[ziedth]

Originally Posted by Sully

I'm using students as an example, as its a big example and the age group of people leaving the country in the majority. A lot of the people I personally know are graduated a few years, or didn't go to college, and are leaving for a better lifestyle and in some cases giving up jobs.

Sully it's obvious to me you are ALLOT more clued into the political side of things and Ireland's Macroeconomic environment but you are delusional if you think people are immigrating as a lifestyle choice.

If we go back five/six years I would hazzard a guess that most of us would only know a couple of people who left the country to work( I'm not counting traveling as I'd call that's extended holiday) while now I could easily pick 10 people who I would call friends over the years and at least twice that of local girls and guys from out my way that had no work and had to move.

you can't seriously believe that if there was work available that these people would have still left the country?

[letsbet]

Fair enough. Wonder what the sample size was because any economic report that I've read will cite economic reasons as the main driver of the increase (which is not measured in the above report). Also, it'd be nice to see what jobs the people were working at before they left. It says that 75% said they were in better jobs so it'd nice to know how many people with say masters qualifications were working in bars and got higher paid jobs abroad.

[ziedth]

Originally Posted by letsbet

. It says that 75% said they were in better jobs so it'd nice to know how many people with say masters qualifications were working in bars and got higher paid jobs abroad.

TBF this is a very good point

[jmcc]

Originally Posted by Sully

I'm using students as an example, as its a big example and the age group of people leaving the country in the majority. A lot of the people I personally know are graduated a few years, or didn't go to college, and are leaving for a better lifestyle and in some cases giving up jobs.

In real life, Sully, are you Mary Coughlan?

Regards...jmcc

[dlofnep]

I'll be voting no - there is absolutely no benefit to this treaty to the state. It continues to erode our national sovereignty.

[blue note]

Originally Posted by dlofnep

I'll be voting no - there is absolutely no benefit to this treaty to the state. It continues to erode our national sovereignty.

What about the benefit of having access to funds to continue to meet our expenditure? How would you solve that problem?

[lightspeed]

If we were to vote no and we did not have the funds, how would the promissory notes and continued bailout money get paid back? Would we not just default and then send the euro crashing into a brick wall?
What logical reason is there to believe that Angela Merkel and the powers that be would allow that to happen in comparison to just grinding their teeth and giving Ireland another bail out if needed. Another thing, Given how close we are now to china, If we were that badly on the brink of poverty, could and would the chinese not lend some of their money. What about the internet? Cant we just get some of that internet money[
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EY6fp...C81A930D505E22

[Cabaal]

Originally Posted by Finnbar01

The Eurozone is flawed and is a contradiction in and of itself, that's why it will collapse.

Interesting?
I what do you suggest will replace it, do you think the systems in place in the likes of America or China or perhaps even Russia are better? Please do tell.

Incidentally both yourself and sully are scaremonegring. This country has been through the rough and tough before and we got thru it.

I'm not scaremongering, I'm being realistic, you suggest the failure of the EU like some anarchists wet dream with no accounting for the actual massive and prolonged negative affects it would have on Ireland and for the people of Europe as a whole.

You suggest that Ireland could survive harsh cuts with obsoletely no accounting for the actual reality of people living day to day and employment in this country,

In short, you dismiss the systems, agreements and governments in place and say they will fail and Ireland will get by but you haven't suggested an alternative and you have not taken into account the massive negative and life changing implications of the failures and changes you want to happen.

[jmcc]

If we vote 'No' does that mean that politicians will have their salaries cut and will former politicians have their pensions cut?

Regards...jmcc

[lightspeed]

Originally Posted by Cabaal

Interesting?
I what do you suggest will replace it, do you think the systems in place in the likes of America or China or perhaps even Russia are better? Please do tell.



I'm not scaremongering, I'm being realistic, you suggest the failure of the EU like some anarchists wet dream with no accounting for the actual massive and prolonged negative affects it would have on Ireland and for the people of Europe as a whole.

You suggest that Ireland could survive harsh cuts with obsoletely no accounting for the actual reality of people living day to day and employment in this country,

In short, you dismiss the systems, agreements and governments in place and say they will fail and Ireland will get by but you haven't suggested an alternative and you have not taken into account the massive negative and life changing implications of the failures and changes you want to happen.

Borrrow money from china = Alternative?

[Cabaal]

Originally Posted by lightspeed

Borrrow money from china = Alternative?

How is this any different to borrowing money from Europe and the IMF, instead of loosing stuff to Europe we'd loose stuff to China.

China aren't going to do stuff for us just because they are nice, they are going to want stuff in return.

[Finnbar01]

Originally Posted by Cabaal

Interesting?
I what do you suggest will replace it, do you think the systems in place in the likes of America or China or perhaps even Russia are better? Please do tell.

We default and go back to our own currency. We also keep the trade agreements in place. The EU should be about trade not political and fiscal union.

I'm not scaremongering, I'm being realistic, you suggest the failure of the EU like some anarchists wet dream with no accounting for the actual massive and prolonged negative affects it would have on Ireland and for the people of Europe as a whole.

So I'm an anarchist now? Well at least that beats being called a racist and xenophobe when I tried to explain to people years ago about the dangers of joining the eurozone. There's a very good chance that the EU will collapse and I played no act, hand or part in it.

You suggest that Ireland could survive harsh cuts with obsoletely no accounting for the actual reality of people living day to day and employment in this country,

There's plenty of room for cuts without creating massive hardship. We have quangos that need culling and social welfare entitlements that need chopping.

[merlante]

Seems to be there are two future Irelands:

A. Ireland inside the Euro, transiting from Troika programmes to fiscally consolidated united states of Europe over the next 15 years. Ireland will be compensated for the loss of its sovereignty and off-shore tax regime by EU structural funds, as business migrates to the core.

B. Ireland leaves the Euro, pegs against the Euro or Sterling at a particular rate, and bears the slings and arrows of current risk. It provides medium term euro-punt rates to FDI and allows companies to do business in Euro. Irish deficit, debt and unemployment are reduced within 3-5 years as currency is allowed to devalue and the positive balance of trade widens. Ireland is out of favour in Europe but can pursue dynamic economic and foreign policies, ala Denmark, Switzerland, etc. Strong & savvy leadership required. Greater risks and rewards.

This is the only real debate behind all of the other fake debates about "yes for jobs" or "no and the sky falls in" or "no to end/increase austerity". Even the abortion debate is more to the point than the ridiculous "crap treaty but no choice -> reluctant yes" debate we currently have (since A will lead to legalised abortion on a shorter timescale).

Needless to say that we won't get the one and only debate that matters because most political parties are more pro-Europe than voters generally are, or more to the point, are eager to run back to the teat of one large power or other. As McWilliam's says, our elite have been allowed into the European "good room", with the tin of USA biscuits (just for visitors), and they'll be damned if they'll give their new sophisticated friends the finger. (It's a pity our political class were not a generation younger.)

To my mind, if you are in favour of option A, you keeping voting yes (it's always 'yes') to all of these treaties until they stop offering the franchise; and if you're in favour of B, you keep voting no. That's the crux of it. These treaties cannot be viewed in isolation, they're part of a teleology towards a utopian future Europe. I think whether you go along with it or not is a matter of personal philosophy.