[Turtyturd]

Originally Posted by partyatmygaff

A brick can be used to make anything providing it's structured and ordered by an outside force. Without someone to order and structure it alongside more bricks it will just remain a brick.

A developing foetus on the other hand is capable of structuring and ordering itself in to something bigger without any outside element orchestrating things.

Make me a fully functioning car out of a brick, complete with radio.

[Paddy Cow]

I haven't read all the pages in this thread so I don't know if this has already been said but I don't think politicians are still dragging their heels because they are afraid to make tough decisions but I think they are too afraid to face the consequences of these decisions.

I remember the divorce referendum and how highly emotional that got. There were signs that read "Hello Divorce, Bye bye Daddy". There was one particular time I recall a couple being on the Late Late Show and they said they were happy as a couple and couldn't imagine divorcing but didn't want other people being able to divorce in case it somehow became the norm. Their whole arguement really boiled down to "I don't want other people to be able to divorce as it will mean that marriage isn't taken seriously and people will only marry with the view of 'If it doesn't work out then we have a get out clause'". When asked about situations such as cheating, domestic abuse etc they were very cadgey and said things like people should take the time to get to know each other properly before committing to a long term relationship so that issues such as this wouldn't be a problem.

When divorce was finally introduced in Ireland it didn't mean that people suddenly thought that marrigae was something to be entered into lightly or that divorce was an easy get out clause. Divorce is not comparable to abortion but certain values are deeply entrenched in our society and it is going to be very hard to change them.

One of the biggest misconceptions about abortion being legalised is that it will become a form of contraception on demand. There is this myth out there that the only women who want abortions are promiscous teenagers who need better education or promiscous older women who are too busy chasing their careers to have time for a baby and both will quite happily "kill the baby" and then get on with their lives.

Neither generalisation is true. Abortion is not that black and white. Most women (and their husbands/partners) agonise over the decision and it is one that they have to live with for the rest of their lives. It makes the decision even harder when they not only have to go abroad but also have to pretend that it never happened because it's not something we talk about here.

So anyway, back to my point and why did I bring up divorce? At the time, the idea of divorce was appalling to many people and in the referendum, it won but it wasn't by a landslide. To get a divorce you need to go to a solicitor and blah blah blah it takes years for it to be finalised. A solicitor doesn't just deal with divorce. One office can deal with many branches of law. No one is going to know if you are going into see your solicitor about getting a divorce or finalising a will.

Getting an abortion is much different. There are specialised clinics abroad, equipped to deal with the physiological and psychological aspects of going through (or not going through with) an abortion and I'm not sure Ireland is ready to handle that. If abortion was legalised in the morning and there was a list of HSC clinics, what would the reaction be?

Would everyone just accept it or would we have a repeat of what has happened in pretty much every other country where they legalised abortion which is to pickett the abortion clinics, send death threats to the dotcors and nurses and scapegoat the women going for abortions?

Ireland is a pretty small country and with the curtain twitchers constantly on alert it's hard to do anything without being noticed. The politicians know this and it is for this reason they are dragging their heels. It would be easy to pass laws legalising abortion but it would be much harder to protect the people who need to use them.

As hard as it is for Irish women who have to go abroad for abortions, how hard would it be to turn up to an Irish clinic with the local news outside waiting to broadcast your buisness to the nation?

For the record I am pro-choice. I have never been in the awful situation where I have had to chose between continuing with a pregnancy or terminating it and I hope I never have to. Personally I think that we should have the option in this country but I'm not sure the politicians have the balls to deal with the fallout of it.

[policarp]

Divorce yesterday.
Abortion today.
Euthanasia tomorrow.
Genetic engineering next week.
Then what?

[seenitall]

Originally Posted by policarp

Divorce yesterday.
Abortion today.
Euthanasia tomorrow.
Genetic engineering next week.
Then what?

Artificial intelligence, is my guess... but isn't this going rather off topic..?

Yes, it should be available in Ireland.

I am pro-choice. Killing an embryo doesn't bother me. I'm much more concerned that a woman has the choice on whether to let the life inside her grow or not.

(Yes, I know, I'm going straight to hell. But, BUT; some women at least have to be baby-murdering sluts, right? Otherwise what would all the heaven-dwellers have to chat about over their tea and McVities' finest? It would be too bad to deprive them, so I hope to give them much more material for their rightousness yet, before I have to shuffle off for my date with the guy who has da horn(s)

[Bambi]

Originally Posted by policarp

Divorce yesterday.
Abortion today.
Euthanasia tomorrow.
Genetic engineering next week.
Then what?

casual friday?

[catthinkin]

Originally Posted by seenitall

Artificial intelligence, is my guess... but isn't this going rather off topic..?

Yes, it should be available in Ireland.

I am pro-choice. Killing an embryo doesn't bother me. I'm much more concerned that a woman has the choice on whether to let the life inside her grow or not.

(Yes, I know, I'm going straight to hell. But, BUT; some women at least have to be baby-murdering sluts, right? Otherwise what would all the heaven-dwellers have to chat about over their tea and McVities' finest? It would be too bad to deprive them, so I hope to give them much more material for their rightousness yet, before I have to shuffle off for my date with the guy who has da horn(s)

Your post might Of been aiming at black humour but it fell short geez baby murdering sluts ?.......nice

[nozzferrahhtoo]

Originally Posted by MoonDancer

Well being as simple as possible and not getting into any of the extended arguments, I would believe that pro life is anti-abortion

Indeed, that is what the term actually means. If you are "pro life" you are against abortion. The reasons why they chose that term are clear too however, it is to make it sound like if you are not "pro" life then perhaps you are "anti" life. It's a linguistic propaganda trick just like those on threads like this who call people like me "pro abortion" or like Philologos who came on here with a line like "Because I am interested in human rights I am against abortion". The inference being clear that if you are pro choice on the matter than you are not interested in human rights.

I know we need labels, and the tricks people play with language are interesting, but it pays to be aware of them too and how labels are cleverly chosen to implement those tricks.

Originally Posted by partyatmygaff

It's not human DNA that i'm assigning rights to. DNA is nothing more than a "recipe book" for proteins. It's not capable of anything and has no real worth on its own. What i'm assigning rights to is the entity as a whole.

Which is just a lot of human DNA really. I still think any grounding for rights needs a little more than being a lump of cells containing DNA, and equivocation over how differentiated those cells are at each stage is likely not going to get us there. While it clearly should not be left out of the discussion entirely, I think it just a first of many steps.

[seenitall]

Originally Posted by catthinkin

Your post might Of been aiming at black humour but it fell short geez baby murdering sluts ?.......nice

No, not nice but it's the reality of some of the attitudes that women having gone through with abortion and having confided in their friends and family have encountered (or they have not been able to confide even to close family because of the same attitudes).

Read a few posts from the recent abortion thread in the Ladies' Lounge and see for yourself how much I'm conjuring out of thin air with my "black humour".

[OldNotWIse]

Originally Posted by nozzferrahhtoo

Thankfully I do not see ANY reason to believe that cliche. If I did then clearly I would never have a say in the rights of the homeless, womens rights, animal rights, politics in foreign countries, cancer issues and much MUCH more because I have never actually BEEN any of those things.

The idea that one has to reserve judgement until one has actually directly experienced a thing is simply bogus and I would not subscribe to it as readily as you appear to.

Again I am well aware of why a woman in such a position would feel emotionally distraught. All I am doing is simply pointing out that adding to that distress by ALSO being upset about things there is no reason to be upset about is to me simply absurd. I see nothing wrong with pointing that out and certainly make no apology for it.



Get off the high horse there son, you in fact did it first. You brought your mothers loss into it as an example for your own position, a person who is not even ON this thread posting and hence you dragged into this yourself.

I merely added to your example by mentioning one of my own and at least I had the decency to mention someone who was ON this thread willingly and willingly posted their own story.

So not only did you do it first, but you did it using a person who did not even come here and willingly post their own story. You have no pedestal at all therefore with which to presume to judge my "form". Check the mirror first and then come back to us.

Er...I'm actually female so you can keep the "son" to yourself (though even addressing a male in this way is quite patronising, and quite telling of your argumentative style that you have to resort to such patronising ways)

I'm not getting into the "he said/she said" type of puppet show antics you clearly want, so fine if you said I said it first, no big deal. My family's experience is mine to talk about, the experience of a stranger on boards is not yours to throw about on some point scoring whim. Not to mention the fact that actually, what you did was far worse, given that the woman you are talking about can see your posts and see your accusations that she is not grieving properly and assigning feelings and emotions to her fetus "wrongfully" - the person I am (anonymously) talking about does not know and even if she did, I am quite clearly on her side.

[OldNotWIse]

Originally Posted by Seachmall

"Fifty-four percent of women who have abortions had used a contraceptive method (usually the condom or the pill) during the month they became pregnant."

- Facts on Induced Abortion in the United States


The Majority of women who have had abortions did use contraception but either used it incorrectly or it failed.

During the month they became pregnant??

[nozzferrahhtoo]

Originally Posted by OldNotWIse

Er...I'm actually female so you can keep the "son" to yourself (though even addressing a male in this way is quite patronising, and quite telling of your argumentative style that you have to resort to such patronising ways)

Again the only person patronising is the one coming in here declaring there is something "wrong" with me and I "left my heart" at home when all I did was support something you said (I was not even disagreeing with you at the time) by reference to an example on THIS thread.

So I happily stand by the comments I made. I did nothing wrong and you have no derailed discussion by going on an off topic attack about whether I am emotionally sound or not.

So let me put it back on the rails by returning to what the point ACTUALLY was at the time.

You were talking about how women, using your mother as an example, when they miscarry can be emotionally invested in the event. Even at early stages in the pregnancy.

My only point in the reply to that was to actually wholly agree with you.... which makes a mockery of your "points scoring" accusation.

I used an example of someone who has been posting on this thread to support the position we both agree with. The idea was to show that the emotional investment not only exists but can powerfully overwhelm rationality to the point that such women will actually feel emotional turmoil over things that are patently not true and will even indicate their intellectual unwillingness to be divested of that either. The emotions can be so strong to the point a user like that can say on this thread that although she knows there is no reason whatsoever to think a 12 week old fetus can feel any pain whatsoever she STILL indicates that "nothing will convince" her that the fetus did not undergo a lot of pain.

My point leading from there was to show that this kind of intellectual dissonance... where a person can hold two completely different and incompatible things in their head at the same time... is certainly a problem in the realm of discourse on abortion topics. Equally therefore it should be recognized that while people might become that emotionally invested... one person believing for nothing but emotional reasons that the fetus can feel pain therefore does nothing but cloud rather than further discourse on the topic and we have to be aware of that and deal with it.

What certainly will not help such discussions of course is you wading in making crass generalizations about my emotional state and capabilities. Again I repeat the most important retort to this which I said in post 1048. Just because I am discussing the intellectual response to such things does not mean I am precluded from having, or never had, an emotional one. If one is going to enter into discussions on topics like abortion however one must be aware of such emotions and... while not becoming an emotionless unreacting automoton... must maintain a clear awareness of when and where to apply such things and when and where to step back and say "While you have my sympathy.... and you do.... this simply is not applicable in the debate".

[OldNotWIse]

Originally Posted by nozzferrahhtoo

Again the only person patronising is the one coming in here declaring there is something "wrong" with me and I "left my heart" at home when all I did was support something you said (I was not even disagreeing with you at the time) by reference to an example on THIS thread.

So I happily stand by the comments I made. I did nothing wrong and you have no derailed discussion by going on an off topic attack about whether I am emotionally sound or not.

So let me put it back on the rails by returning to what the point ACTUALLY was at the time.

You were talking about how women, using your mother as an example, when they miscarry can be emotionally invested in the event. Even at early stages in the pregnancy.

My only point in the reply to that was to actually wholly agree with you.... which makes a mockery of your "points scoring" accusation.

I used an example of someone who has been posting on this thread to support the position we both agree with. The idea was to show that the emotional investment not only exists but can powerfully overwhelm rationality to the point that such women will actually feel emotional turmoil over things that are patently not true and will even indicate their intellectual unwillingness to be divested of that either. The emotions can be so strong to the point a user like that can say on this thread that although she knows there is no reason whatsoever to think a 12 week old fetus can feel any pain whatsoever she STILL indicates that "nothing will convince" her that the fetus did not undergo a lot of pain.

My point leading from there was to show that this kind of intellectual dissonance... where a person can hold two completely different and incompatible things in their head at the same time... is certainly a problem in the realm of discourse on abortion topics. Equally therefore it should be recognized that while people might become that emotionally invested... one person believing for nothing but emotional reasons that the fetus can feel pain therefore does nothing but cloud rather than further discourse on the topic and we have to be aware of that and deal with it.

What certainly will not help such discussions of course is you wading in making crass generalizations about my emotional state and capabilities. Again I repeat the most important retort to this which I said in post 1048. Just because I am discussing the intellectual response to such things does not mean I am precluded from having, or never had, an emotional one. If one is going to enter into discussions on topics like abortion however one must be aware of such emotions and... while not becoming an emotionless unreacting automoton... must maintain a clear awareness of when and where to apply such things and when and where to step back and say "While you have my sympathy.... and you do.... this simply is not applicable in the debate".

Sorry...what?

[nozzferrahhtoo]

Originally Posted by OldNotWIse

Sorry...what?

Honestly not sure how to help you with such a laconic line of questioning. If you have something more specific to ask then I am here for you. Until then the best I can do is say read it and read it again until you either understand it... or you can at least get to the point where you can frame a coherent question I can then deal with.

[OldNotWIse]

Originally Posted by nozzferrahhtoo

Honestly not sure how to help you with such a laconic line of questioning. If you have something more specific to ask then I am here for you. Until then the best I can do is say read it and read it again until you either understand it... or you can at least get to the point where you can frame a coherent question I can then deal with.

I dont have that much time tbh, I skimmed through but I just see more of the same from your previous posts. Life is short

[OldNotWIse]

Originally Posted by Turtyturd

Make me a fully functioning car out of a brick, complete with radio.

I think the poster said, "without someone to order and structure it" - that was the point.