[Capt'n Midnight]

another alternative is smart meters + lots and lots of insulation and then store the surplus energy as thermal heat

Proper storage heaters, smart , linked into weather forecast
Perhaps even storage heaters that use phase change so don't loose heat over time
Houses and premises that can be keep warm hours after the heat has been turned off mean you can average out the heating load of apartments.

you pay less if you agree a greater +/- variation on temperature perhaps

[pljudge321]

Buildings are the one big area where there are massive energy savings to be made, and relatively cheaply. I thinks they comprise around 40% of total EU energy consumption.

Apart from that I think storage is massively oversold as the holy grail in renewables integration. The studies I've seen for Ireland indicate that it is pretty much pointless until around 9 GW of wind is integrated on the system, and even then theres an equivalent benefit to simply having better wind forecast models and stochastic unit commitment implemented.

[Capt'n Midnight]

Originally Posted by pljudge321

Buildings are the one big area where there are massive energy savings to be made, and relatively cheaply. I thinks they comprise around 40% of total EU energy consumption.

Three types of heat , waste heat from one can be used in lower grades
- industrial high grade heat, hundreds of degrees
- hot water
- space heating = warm rooms

A lot of the industrial heat is used to break chemical bonds, baring a change in the laws of thermodynamics there aren't game changing savings to be made there.

The studies I've seen for Ireland indicate that it is pretty much pointless until around 9 GW of wind is integrated on the system, and even then theres an equivalent benefit to simply having better wind forecast models and stochastic unit commitment implemented.

To get massive storage you need to upgrade the grid and for that sort of money you could build more interconnectors to the UK, then and ONLY then can you start to talk about exporting power

Also note that batteries and interconnectors are both DC
so the rectifiers and inverters and transformers are similar



The point being that much of the infrastructure you use to provide massive amounts of stored energy are the same as will link you to the UK grid, so the economics change a lot.


Peak demand is a lot pricier than off peak, up to 10 times the price.
MOST of the storage system economics are based on chasing that sweet spot. Super insulated hot water tanks and homes with smart meters would reduce peak demand and thus a lot of the economics.

[Markcheese]

As energy prices increase aren't the super insulating of homes and smart metering( to hit that sweet spot ) almost a given to leave energy costs affordable. plus if everyone moved to super storage heaters and electric hot water storage heaters , as well as cars, have u not just increased the baseline electric demand... U may have 2 or 3 days thermal store what happens when u have a calm week or fortnight... Does wood or biomass not make a more sensible dependable energy store.....and when u include transmission losses prob more efficent than electricity... Leaving electricity for things like motors and electronics...

[Capt'n Midnight]

Originally Posted by Markcheese

Does wood or biomass not make a more sensible dependable energy store.....and when u include transmission losses prob more efficent than electricity... Leaving electricity for things like motors and electronics...

gas turbines can be up to 60% efficient, so electricity can beat fireplaces and such

condensing boilers are more efficient, but the capital investments and maintenance costs can out weigh this


work out how much biomass you need , it's a lot , I can remember when we used to get a ton of turf for thirty quid , and it was for the fireplace in one room still had central heating and immersion ( and woe betide anyone who left it on )

[pljudge321]

Originally Posted by Capt'n Midnight

gas turbines can be up to 60% efficient, so electricity can beat fireplaces and such

condensing boilers are more efficient, but the capital investments and maintenance costs can out weigh this


work out how much biomass you need , it's a lot , I can remember when we used to get a ton of turf for thirty quid , and it was for the fireplace in one room still had central heating and immersion ( and woe betide anyone who left it on )

I remember working out how much land we would need to cover with biomass to cover the countries electricity supply as part of a college assignment. Suffice to say we would need more land.

[Markcheese]

Yes , a ton of turf burnt in an open fire in a draughty ,poorly insulated room is inefficient, as is an electric storage heater in same room...
... high insulation is a given as is a decent stove.... Would really only use wood/ biomass pellets for space/water heating.... 60% efficent sounds a bit optimistic for a new gas generator even for a CHP, ( don't think bord Gais or esb are getting that with new plants at aghada+whitegate) ...even then 60% efficent at power plant loses a lot in transmission....

Personally , I reckon the best battery we have for intermitant wind is the gas generators we already have... Quickest to respond, already there, and will go decades longer than design life if not used much...