[Memnoch]

SamHarris.

You seem to launch repeated ad Hominems against Mr. Chomsky throughout this thread yet you have provided little evidence to support your sweeping generalisations.

I think perhaps you may be missing the point. It's not that Western Media is controlled and we should be comparing it to Saudi Media which is even more controlled or Pakistani media where journalists routinely lose their lives for asking the wrong questions.

It's simply, that we are not AS free as we think we are. And the media's lack of freedom and honesty plays a big role in the weakness of the ideas of Western democracy.

I too despair at the state of Western democracy and the failure of our media outlets to help us to maintain a true democracy as opposed to the plutocracy/oligarchy into which we seem to have fallen.

It's important and correct to point this out because we should not be trying to compare ourselves to Saudi Arabia because that is not the direction we want to be going. We want and believe in democracy and that is what we must fight to conserve and strengthen and I believe Mr. Chomsky plays a vital role in the same.

It's easy to dismiss him as a radical without actually directly addressing the meat of his arguments and the reasoning by which he arrives at his conclusions. Though I'll confess I have not read the work being discussed in this thread or a LOT of his other writings apart from various articles I'm come across over time.

[SamHarris]

Originally Posted by Memnoch

SamHarris.

You seem to launch repeated ad Hominems against Mr. Chomsky throughout this thread yet you have provided little evidence to support your sweeping generalisations.

I think perhaps you may be missing the point. It's not that Western Media is controlled and we should be comparing it to Saudi Media which is even more controlled or Pakistani media where journalists routinely lose their lives for asking the wrong questions.

It's simply, that we are not AS free as we think we are. And the media's lack of freedom and honesty plays a big role in the weakness of the ideas of Western democracy.

I too despair at the state of Western democracy and the failure of our media outlets to help us to maintain a true democracy as opposed to the plutocracy/oligarchy into which we seem to have fallen.

It's important and correct to point this out because we should not be trying to compare ourselves to Saudi Arabia because that is not the direction we want to be going. We want and believe in democracy and that is what we must fight to conserve and strengthen and I believe Mr. Chomsky plays a vital role in the same.

It's easy to dismiss him as a radical without actually directly addressing the meat of his arguments and the reasoning by which he arrives at his conclusions. Though I'll confess I have not read the work being discussed in this thread or a LOT of his other writings apart from various articles I'm come across over time.

No, Your clearly missing my point and addressing ones I never made. Fine you can ignore the ad hominums, the points anyone made with reference to them were an argument from (perceived) authority anyway with absolutly nothing to do with the topic so I really shouldnt have engaged with their obsessions to begin with.

I never compared any place to Saudi Arabia, I addressed the point of the thread with a point of my own Richie felt the need to bring up how the US incredibly controlled media, his support for this was how he once read a book about it. Even if he presented a reasoned and valid argument for why he believed that it wouldnt have mattered a sht because it had nothing to do with the point I made regarding the Arab position towards Palestinians and why they have it.

No one brought up the "meat" of his arguments, so there is no need for me to address them, because they have absolutly nothing to do with the topic nor with the point I made.

Your proposing that next time someone makes a vague reference to a single book it is then the perview of the respondy to address all points made in said book and debunk them? Really. . .

[SamHarris]

Can we PLEASE start banning the people whos contribution to every thread bascially boils down to "I dont like the US" . . .

[SamHarris]

Originally Posted by Chuck Stone

Take the Indonesian atrocities perpetrated against the people of East Timor. There was little to no reporting of them in US media. Why? Because the US interests were being severed - indeed it was done with the blessing of Washington (from memory)

Then your memory fails you. The indonesian forces were originally allied with the West, the occupation of Timor ended when the West and mainly Washington put preassure on Indonesia. It was then one of the main reason given by al Qaeda for their attacks on US citizens.

[karma_]

Originally Posted by SamHarris

Can we PLEASE start banning the people whos contribution to every thread bascially boils down to "I dont like the US" . . .

First with the ad homs, now this old chestnut. I love how typical these threads get at times, it's comforting to know that some things never change.

[southsiderosie]

MOD NOTE:

The Chomsky posts from the Iran thread have been pulled into their own thread (the one you are posting in now). The original Iran thread is here.

[Memnoch]

Originally Posted by SamHarris

Your proposing that next time someone makes a vague reference to a single book it is then the perview of the respondy to address all points made in said book and debunk them? Really. . .

Of course not. I think you have a valid point. I think if you were to simply say what you just said. That simply linking to a book does not prove Western media is malfunctioning, or however else you want to word that, there's a lot of validity to it.

However, the topic is 'Noam Chomsky's Role as a...' And your response has been ad hominem and sweeping generalisations of Mr. Chomsky. Which I do not agree with.

[SamHarris]

Originally Posted by geeman

So if you can provide empirical evidence to support the belief black people commit more crime than white people in urban areas of the US, your prejudice of black people is valid?

What?

Originally Posted by geeman

Just out of curiosity but how many Arab, Persian or Muslims do you know personally?

Irrelevant.

Originally Posted by geeman

So you don't think you're making assumptions about every Arab, Persian or Muslim?
Your opinions of them on these forums would suggest otherwise.
I wonder what assumptions you have about the traveler community and black people in general.

Then you dont know the difference between statistics that prove significant proportions of support for various acts and the act of assuming.

Not my problem, yours.

Originally Posted by geeman

I don't know where the hell you got that from...I merely pointed out that if Norman Finkelstein has the ability to see the oppression of Palestinians as wrong, then why can't you?

What the hell are you talking about? When was that even brought up in this thread? When did I say the oppression of Palestinians was right?

Stop making stuff up, its embarrassing.

Originally Posted by geeman

People like you always excuse Israeli oppression using the Holocaust and it's something Norman has been very critical of. Excusing the oppression of Palestinians is no more different than excusing the oppression of black people during South Africas apartheid regime...there's no difference.

Where? Citations now.

[southsiderosie]

Originally Posted by SamHarris

Can we PLEASE start banning the people whos contribution to every thread bascially boils down to "I dont like the US" . . .

MOD NOTE:

If you have a problem, PM a mod or report a post. Don't clutter up the thread with it.

[Chuck Stone]

Originally Posted by SamHarris

Then your memory fails you. The indonesian forces were originally allied with the West, the occupation of Timor ended when the West and mainly Washington put preassure on Indonesia. It was then one of the main reason given by al Qaeda for their attacks on US citizens.

You have completely failed to consider my point.

Try again.

[SamHarris]

Originally Posted by Chuck Stone

You have completely failed to consider my point.

Try again.

Wrong, I didnt CARE about your point, I was merely pointing out your ignorance on the matter which concerned me.

I have no interest in this thread, I had an interest in the original premise which was unfortunatly high jacked, then I had to defend myself against repeated stupid and completly off topic little comments. Ill only be back to see where the hell geeman got all his information.

[geeman]

Originally Posted by SamHarris

What?

What did you not understand about the question? It was pretty straight forward.

Irrelevant.

I'll translate that as "I don't know any arab, persian or muslim people"

Then you dont know the difference between statistics that prove significant proportions of support for various acts and the act of assuming.

Well, I don't judge an entire race of people based on statistics from racist organisations.

I judge people based on my own encounters and that's why I've asked you how many arabs, persians or muslims you know personally.

[SamHarris]

Originally Posted by geeman

What did you not understand about the question? It was pretty straight forward.



I'll translate that as "I don't know any arab, persian or muslim people"



Well, I don't judge an entire race of people based on statistics from racist organisations.

I judge people based on my own encounters and that's why I've asked you how many arabs, persians or muslims you know personally.

No the "what" was where the hell your getting all this from.


You obviously dont know how to forumlate an argument, even when you feel comfortable making things up.

Just pointing out all the "positions" you attacked, were only in your own head. Or would you like to bring that evidence out now?

Then you judge based on anecdotal evidence? Im not surprised. Look up anecdotal evidence. Then look up statistical evidence. In any debate anywhere in the world, one is valued incredibly highly, the other is nearly always disregarded. Guess which one you just backed? You demonstrate an enormous inability to gather and parse information.


Im not teaching you how to evaluate information, if you want to learn start a new thread and ask why all of that is the case. You wont find anyone who disagrees with me on this that has a clue what they are talking about.

[Chuck Stone]

Originally Posted by SamHarris

Wrong, I didnt CARE about your point, I was merely pointing out your ignorance on the matter which concerned me.

Again you have failed to consider my point. You'd rather talk about Mr Chomsky's lack of credentials, as you see it, and call him 'a radical'.

What gives you the authority to call Mr Chomsky a 'radical'.

[K-9]

The first 20 posts or so were from a separate thread, hoping an off topic subject might generate a topic of some interest and discussion.

Unfortunately all it resulted in was:
Posters posting further off topicness about aforementioned off topic thread and the usual off topicness.