[Fuzzy Clam]

Originally Posted by watty

You will never ever know how badly it works, as may seem to work till it lets you down.[B]

Wha!
It will seem to work????
Thats tech talk, is it?

[watty]

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showp...8&postcount=13

[ninja900]

Originally Posted by skinthegoat

Watty has a point, but why are we being saddled with a needlessly complex and expensive system, one which is not even compatible with that of our nearest neighbour. Once again, it seems to my simple mind, someone in a public body here is able to make a decision which has the happy consequence of enriching a particular group at the expense of the general public. And given the endemic nature of corruption in public life here, I find myself unable to put two and two together without getting at least four and a half. The fact that people in Ireland are going to be obliged to pay here FOUR TIMES what a Spaniard pays is, whatever way you look at it, nothing short of a scandal.

€20 vs €60 is three times, not four times and I would expect the cheapest boxes here to get a little cheaper in a few months.
Apples vs oranges comparison, as Watty said the real comparison is with a Freeview HD box, as all Saorview boxes need to do HD. This is a good thing because, coming late to the digital TV party, we didn't set up an SD-only system that was , frankly, a bit crap, and then a few years later require everyone who'd already bought Freeview TVs/boxes to upgrade again just to get HD.

The only people being enriched are the cowboy aerial installers ('digital aerials' etc.) and the TV retailers who dumped obsolete UK stock here, and/or are implying that people need to buy expensive new TVs just to get Saorview when a cheap box will do.

I wasn't born then, but I'm quite sure that when RTE set up their first B/W 625 line transmitters, there were people complaining along the lines of, '405 lines is good enough for the UK', 'unnecessary complexity', 'sets more expensive' etc. etc.

[Sam Russell]

Another rip-off attempt is Sky suggesting that going digital requires a Sky subscription.

And no-one is saying anything about it. [RTE, RTE NL, DCNER, BAI, Comreg]

[watty]

The UK wasted MILLIONS by reactivating 300 to 2000 off 405 sets (no one knows) rather than going straight to 625 after WWWII as Germany & Russia did. Ireland wasted a lot doing 625 WELL as 405 in Border & East Coast in 1962. 625 was in existence in 1946 and rolling out in 1948.

So RTE *DID* accommodate people that had already bought 405 sets for UK transmissions. They are not about to make that mistake again. UK had already done 625 tests before 1961 and launched 625 in 1967.

It's pretty stupid to make a quick short term decision to suit a few people rather than the proper solution.

In real terms even a 42" HDTV is cheaper today than an ordinary Radio was in 1954!

The box cost isn't a big issue. What's a TV licence (every year!) €156?
Sky sub is average over €400 per customer p.a.
82% of People have Sky, UPC or other expensive pay TV, 3 months is more than a box that might last 5 to 10 years.

[watty]

The UK wasted MILLIONS by reactivating 300 to 2000 off 405 sets (no one knows) rather than going straight to 625 after WWWII as Germany & Russia did. Ireland wasted a lot doing 625 WELL as 405 in Border & East Coast in 1962. 625 was in existence in 1946 and rolling out in 1948.

So RTE *DID* accommodate people that had already bought 405 sets for UK transmissions. They are not about to make that mistake again. UK had already done 625 tests before 1961 and launched 625 in 1967.

It's pretty stupid to make a quick short term decision to suit a few people rather than the proper solution.

In real terms even a 42" HDTV is cheaper today than an ordinary Radio was in 1954!

The box cost isn't a big issue. What's a TV licence (every year!) €156?
Sky sub is average over €400 per customer p.a.
82% of People have Sky, UPC or other expensive pay TV, 3 months is more than a box that might last 5 to 10 years.

[ninja900]

Perhaps, Watty, but the few well-to-do people in the 'Home Counties' who could receive, and afford, TV in those days would have been rather influential!

Edit: they launched 625 in the UK in 1964 but that was BBC2 only, of course. We beat them to it

[Sam Russell]

Originally Posted by ninja900

Edit: they launched 625 in the UK in 1964 but that was BBC2 only, of course. We beat them to it

That is why the version we use PAL-I as it was first used in Ireland.

[watty]

Originally Posted by ninja900

Perhaps, Watty, but the few well-to-do people in the 'Home Counties' who could receive, and afford, TV in those days would have been rather influential!

Edit: they launched 625 in the UK in 1964 but that was BBC2 only, of course. We beat them to it

Ok, that makes my point even more of the stupidity of running 405 Transmitters.
Stupidity repeated over the Deflectors and MMDS debacle.

It's time Irish Politics grew up.

[ninja900]

Irish politics won't grow up until Irish voters grow up!
This is the country where a TD was elected on a single-issue platform of supporting illegal rebroadcasting, after all...

[Sam Russell]

Originally Posted by watty

The UK wasted MILLIONS by reactivating 300 to 2000 off 405 sets (no one knows) rather than going straight to 625 after WWWII as Germany & Russia did. Ireland wasted a lot doing 625 WELL as 405 in Border & East Coast in 1962. 625 was in existence in 1946 and rolling out in 1948.

So RTE *DID* accommodate people that had already bought 405 sets for UK transmissions. They are not about to make that mistake again. UK had already done 625 tests before 1961 and launched 625 in 1967.

It's pretty stupid to make a quick short term decision to suit a few people rather than the proper solution.

In real terms even a 42" HDTV is cheaper today than an ordinary Radio was in 1954!

The box cost isn't a big issue. What's a TV licence (every year!) €156?
Sky sub is average over €400 per customer p.a.
82% of People have Sky, UPC or other expensive pay TV, 3 months is more than a box that might last 5 to 10 years.

There was no alternative open to RTE when they started up. A lot of existing sets were 405 only, and there were no dual standard ones until BBC 2 started. Therefore, the already installed base who could receive BBC and ITV would have had to have two seperate TVs to receive RTE. TVs were very expensive then and they were not common at all. Given RTE were only broadcasting a few hours a day, most would have ignored the service, and the adverts that paid towards it.

It was easier to do dual illumination than try and force the 625 only service.

It is not the same today, as a STB is small money and simple to install and use. It would have been better if we could have used the UK D Book standard, but since they were expecting Boxer to be the Pay TV contractor, they went with Nordig. Perhaps RTE NL/DCNER should try to persuade the UK to go with a Nordig inspired modification to their standard to allow mutual operation. [Two chances].

[watty]

You make my point Sam.

What ever argument there was for 405 in 1946 and 1962 (both of which are arguable, it the point) there is no valid argument for MPEG2 SD only boxes. The only "argument" is really DVB-T vs DVB-T2. The DVB-T2 was still in test when Ireland was supposed to be rolling out. South Africa nearly switched to ISDB instead of DVB-T + MPEG4, which delayed them 2 years, so they are rolling out DVB-T2 rather than DVB-T (but MPEG4 & MHEG5, though not UK D-Book).

The D-Book is a closed UK standard. No-one else is likely to use it.

[Sam Russell]

Originally Posted by watty

The D-Book is a closed UK standard. No-one else is likely to use it.

There is no reason why the UK D Book does not move over to be Nordig 2.2. There are not that many differences, and all could be overcome by 'adjustment' in the next release. The NI situation would be enough reason. Interoperability is all that is required. The known problems like LCN and summertime could certainly be overcome. The good side for us would be the use of DVB-T2 tuners in Saorview certified boxes for future use.

[watty]

It's up to the UK...

[Sam Russell]

Originally Posted by watty

It's up to the UK...

Of course, but they could easily make modifications to the definitions that would improve the spec, certainly from our point of view. Maybe RTE NL could make a few requests.